sperho
ArboristSite Operative
Seems like the only people who lose something here are his customers. :hmm3grin2orange:
1/3 Diameter Notch Rule
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Seems like the only people who lose something here are his customers. :hmm3grin2orange:
Bizarre, man. Bizarre. WGARA* how bigga how many trees any of us cuts?
When I get to cut a tree up, or cut it down, I get a real kick out of it, because it involves using a chainsaw. Doing it for a living woud be fun, but I am not quite qualified to do that. I also getta kick outta the pics of you guys runnin yer saws, cause it's cool.
I was a decent stone carver a while back, but thumping my chest about it, well, whatever. It's what I did for several years. Big Whoop. That and $650 will buy me a new 361.
I really like hearing the logging stories, etc.. and the chainsaws and videos and jokes and all that stuff. But verbal urination for distance is not an Olympyk event, or a Stihl event for that matter. Share your knowledge, make us all richer for it.
*who gives a rat's ax......
When I get to cut a tree up, or cut it down, I get a real kick out of it, because it involves using a chainsaw. Doing it for a living woud be fun, but I am not quite qualified to do that. I also getta kick outta the pics of you guys runnin yer saws, cause it's cool.
I was a decent stone carver a while back, but thumping my chest about it, well, whatever. It's what I did for several years. Big Whoop. That and $650 will buy me a new 361.
I really like hearing the logging stories, etc.. and the chainsaws and videos and jokes and all that stuff. But verbal urination for distance is not an Olympyk event, or a Stihl event for that matter. Share your knowledge, make us all richer for it.
*who gives a rat's ax......
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
In reverse paragraph order
"Now after all this and the tree still won't go down then place a pull line in the top of the tree with a Bigshot slingshot ,throwline and bag . With a prusik and Masdam rope puller anchored to a nearby tree pull the treeover. I wouldn't recommend this for logging though.LOL."
Rope is a huge difference between arborist and logger. Variety of places where rope can do a much better job. Understood.
-------
"Tapered hingewood: while cutting the backcut leave extra hingewood at the opposite side of the lean on a side leaner but thinner then normal inside the lean side. Keep your backcut and notch apex on the same level of each other, this way you can judge your hingewood thickness better."
Tapered hingewood is a SOP by anyone I know of. Cutting level and keeping cuts level really pays off especially as one gets to larger diameters. A simple way to promote this to new cutters is to take a pocket level and have them practice cutting flat from both sides of the tree and then check for dropping the tip of the bar or angling the cut down with the level. This can be done on a high stumped tree many more times. Of course, this is a great time to practice face and back cut basics when there is no tree falling event to place the trainee in danger from above.
---
"Ever have a tree sit back and you can't get the wedge in, no problem. At the back of the tree make a plunge cut a 1/2" below the closed backcut , you can cut right clean through the middle of the notches apex, then drive your wedge through the plunge cut and the 1/2" of wood easily breaks and lifts the tree."
Yea, of course I have done this.
First thought is avoid this mistake at almost all costs. Obviously. Using an ‘insurance wedge’ promptly is the cats meow. As soon as it can be placed without chain contact. The settling back of a tree is to be avoided not just because of the difficulty starting wedges and pinching the bar. But also because any movement of the top of the tree away from the fulcrum represents a geometric increase in resistance. A teeter totter on a level requires equal forces on each side to balance. Placing more weight on one side creates a resistance that can be countered with an equal force (from below with an incline plane, in this case). Picture a 120 foot tall tree laying down horizontal and trying to wedge it back up and over. The further the top weight, (and all the other places in-between provide resistance), are from the fulcrum the greater the forces needed are to lift that tree back. In this sense, this is an area where a teeter totter is somewhat different than a tree as with the teeter totter we focus on the weight at the end. With a tree there is weight resistance added throughout incrementally as we move up the stem. Geometric increase in resistance means that it is of great importance to not let a tree set back the slightest amount. Like cutting level every time, a great principle to live by.
Another way to recover from a set back is to cut from the inside back out for only a portion of the backcut and create an opening that will accept a wedge while still being in the same cut.
A disadvantage to doing the plunge below for a new spot for the wedge is that it reduces the viability of the wedge by the thickness of the bar. This rear plunge also places the faller behind the tree and with most of the tree cut off this is not as safe as being to the side.
To do this 'quarter' recut simply bore back in with (small diameters) in the same cut. It is not that hard to follow the old one in. Then cut back out leaving the other half of the back cut area still supporting the tree. The sawyer may need to recut this again angling the saw downward just slightly to get an adequate opening to accept the first wedge. Wedge in this opening and as it lifts the tree then the other side comes available for other wedges. A big hint here is to make this first recut on the side with the least weight.
Of course one of the primary ways to avoid this on smaller diameter trees is to make the back-cut or a portion of the backcut first, then establish the wedge(s) needed and proceed with the face being sure to not cut the wood on the corners, (sapwood on both sides).
---
"When I make the 1st notch cut I hold the saw against the tree and gunsight my saw's TOP COVER'S sight mark to where the tree must fall, then I proceed to cut straight down almost verticle and verticle if I'm cutting into the flare."
Making the top cut of the notch first is something I'd recommend against for two primary reasons.
1) It is not as accurate as utilizing the flat of a face, within the skill level of any given cutter. A quick way to understand this concept is to start a 45 degree angled cut then deliberately make it off level. Place the bar where it is pointing up in the air at a 45 degree angle, in addition to the 45 degree angle downward slope. Now look at the sights from the top, exactly from straight above. Note how the sight on the top of the saw points to a different spot than the sight on the side of the saw. The reality is the face direction is somewhere in-between those two lines. Once the cut is completed level.
This exaggerated angle is used to point out why the sighting cut is best if it is perfectly level.
2) Once started, the top of the face does not allow for but minimal adjustment in direction. That is why starting with a flat cut can be better, it allows for precise adjustment directionally.
Of course sighting from the rear is far superior to sighting from above. It is important to see both the target and the sight in the same view. If one notes any learning faller bobbing his head back and forth trying to draw an imaginary line with his mind or even his hand they need to be stopped from bad habits like that immediately. Don't use imaginary lines, use real lines of sight. Can you picture the accuracy differences that would show up with target shooters using sights from above vs. looking down the barrel? Pistol shooting is actually a reasonable comparison as the pistol sights are about the same length as the sights on the saw.
One of the reasons the carpenters square trick, that you mention "I check the gunsight of the apex with a 2ft carpenter square to see if the tree is aimed right....", works so well is that it has a longer sight. The difference between rifle accuracy and pistol accuracy if you will. The other good reason for using a carpenters square, when you can, is that if placed in the center of the face it shows where the tree is facing. Not where the saw powerhead is facing by using the sights on the saw. As the tree diameter increases this "off to the side" distance increases and with taller trees this could mean hitting a stump and breaking up good lumber.
A nice drill is to have a learning faller check out the face direction, with their sights, from both sides of the tree. If the back of the face is square, (trivia - even with the very slight curve of the modern bars it may not be exactly exactly square), the sighting from either side will be slightly off by the distance apart of the powerhead locations. This means that the tree has been faced in-between these two sight lines.
Additionally; making the face at a high angle as in open face technique does not allow for use of the dogs. While not a big factor in smaller diameters this dog free cutting, (many cutters with small bars in smaller tree diameter falling), actually remove even the small factory dogs. That results in a huge arm strength fatigue factor over the course of a day.
---
With further regard to the carpenters square trick. When making the level part of the face cut first one can place and use the square on the flat prior to the angled cut being made. The undercut doesn't have to be removed for the square to do its job unless the trees diameter is over 3 feet or so. (I have a bigger square.) Then the face direction can be corrected as needed well before any large re-cutting project is mandated.
A string can be placed and matched to the square for illustrations.
Sighting sticks can be used in very large diameters and clearly are superior.
A really nice teaching tool with the saw off on a safe tree or learning high stump. The saw and square can both be in position at the same time. Then the learning faller can see where both are pointing and understand the powerhead off-set parallax.
---
An additional advantage to checking out the wood of the tree with the face being removed, WITH A DEEPER FACE, is that the cutter can see more of the tree exposed. This has relevance in the world of decay.
{Quick sidebar for the good of the order.}
----
"I then make the bottom notch cut and look down through the verticle cut to watch for the sawchain so I don't cut through the apex."
This is nice for those that have trouble matching cuts and do not have the discipline to check.
Making deeper faces and higher faces does require more skill.
--
"But at 1/8 the narrower notch apex is weaker in side stability then the added sapwood advantage would give . "
Yes, that would be true also.
---
"Cut as low to the flare or ground as you can that’s where all the strongest fiber and extra width for stability is."
Again, good points from the standpoint of wood strength.
Caution here on hazard trees. Ability to look up and escape can override short stump needs.
Cutting lower is more difficult as the wood is denser and also a sawyer can find dirt down there.
--
"Sapwood is much stronger then dorment heartwood............. "
No disputing that. Heartwood is more brittle and behaves like drought stressed sapwood. The flexible strength of sapwood and emphasis of protecting the holding wood at the corners certainly is not under dispute.
"Now after all this and the tree still won't go down then place a pull line in the top of the tree with a Bigshot slingshot ,throwline and bag . With a prusik and Masdam rope puller anchored to a nearby tree pull the treeover. I wouldn't recommend this for logging though.LOL."
Rope is a huge difference between arborist and logger. Variety of places where rope can do a much better job. Understood.
-------
"Tapered hingewood: while cutting the backcut leave extra hingewood at the opposite side of the lean on a side leaner but thinner then normal inside the lean side. Keep your backcut and notch apex on the same level of each other, this way you can judge your hingewood thickness better."
Tapered hingewood is a SOP by anyone I know of. Cutting level and keeping cuts level really pays off especially as one gets to larger diameters. A simple way to promote this to new cutters is to take a pocket level and have them practice cutting flat from both sides of the tree and then check for dropping the tip of the bar or angling the cut down with the level. This can be done on a high stumped tree many more times. Of course, this is a great time to practice face and back cut basics when there is no tree falling event to place the trainee in danger from above.
---
"Ever have a tree sit back and you can't get the wedge in, no problem. At the back of the tree make a plunge cut a 1/2" below the closed backcut , you can cut right clean through the middle of the notches apex, then drive your wedge through the plunge cut and the 1/2" of wood easily breaks and lifts the tree."
Yea, of course I have done this.
First thought is avoid this mistake at almost all costs. Obviously. Using an ‘insurance wedge’ promptly is the cats meow. As soon as it can be placed without chain contact. The settling back of a tree is to be avoided not just because of the difficulty starting wedges and pinching the bar. But also because any movement of the top of the tree away from the fulcrum represents a geometric increase in resistance. A teeter totter on a level requires equal forces on each side to balance. Placing more weight on one side creates a resistance that can be countered with an equal force (from below with an incline plane, in this case). Picture a 120 foot tall tree laying down horizontal and trying to wedge it back up and over. The further the top weight, (and all the other places in-between provide resistance), are from the fulcrum the greater the forces needed are to lift that tree back. In this sense, this is an area where a teeter totter is somewhat different than a tree as with the teeter totter we focus on the weight at the end. With a tree there is weight resistance added throughout incrementally as we move up the stem. Geometric increase in resistance means that it is of great importance to not let a tree set back the slightest amount. Like cutting level every time, a great principle to live by.
Another way to recover from a set back is to cut from the inside back out for only a portion of the backcut and create an opening that will accept a wedge while still being in the same cut.
A disadvantage to doing the plunge below for a new spot for the wedge is that it reduces the viability of the wedge by the thickness of the bar. This rear plunge also places the faller behind the tree and with most of the tree cut off this is not as safe as being to the side.
To do this 'quarter' recut simply bore back in with (small diameters) in the same cut. It is not that hard to follow the old one in. Then cut back out leaving the other half of the back cut area still supporting the tree. The sawyer may need to recut this again angling the saw downward just slightly to get an adequate opening to accept the first wedge. Wedge in this opening and as it lifts the tree then the other side comes available for other wedges. A big hint here is to make this first recut on the side with the least weight.
Of course one of the primary ways to avoid this on smaller diameter trees is to make the back-cut or a portion of the backcut first, then establish the wedge(s) needed and proceed with the face being sure to not cut the wood on the corners, (sapwood on both sides).
---
"When I make the 1st notch cut I hold the saw against the tree and gunsight my saw's TOP COVER'S sight mark to where the tree must fall, then I proceed to cut straight down almost verticle and verticle if I'm cutting into the flare."
Making the top cut of the notch first is something I'd recommend against for two primary reasons.
1) It is not as accurate as utilizing the flat of a face, within the skill level of any given cutter. A quick way to understand this concept is to start a 45 degree angled cut then deliberately make it off level. Place the bar where it is pointing up in the air at a 45 degree angle, in addition to the 45 degree angle downward slope. Now look at the sights from the top, exactly from straight above. Note how the sight on the top of the saw points to a different spot than the sight on the side of the saw. The reality is the face direction is somewhere in-between those two lines. Once the cut is completed level.
This exaggerated angle is used to point out why the sighting cut is best if it is perfectly level.
2) Once started, the top of the face does not allow for but minimal adjustment in direction. That is why starting with a flat cut can be better, it allows for precise adjustment directionally.
Of course sighting from the rear is far superior to sighting from above. It is important to see both the target and the sight in the same view. If one notes any learning faller bobbing his head back and forth trying to draw an imaginary line with his mind or even his hand they need to be stopped from bad habits like that immediately. Don't use imaginary lines, use real lines of sight. Can you picture the accuracy differences that would show up with target shooters using sights from above vs. looking down the barrel? Pistol shooting is actually a reasonable comparison as the pistol sights are about the same length as the sights on the saw.
One of the reasons the carpenters square trick, that you mention "I check the gunsight of the apex with a 2ft carpenter square to see if the tree is aimed right....", works so well is that it has a longer sight. The difference between rifle accuracy and pistol accuracy if you will. The other good reason for using a carpenters square, when you can, is that if placed in the center of the face it shows where the tree is facing. Not where the saw powerhead is facing by using the sights on the saw. As the tree diameter increases this "off to the side" distance increases and with taller trees this could mean hitting a stump and breaking up good lumber.
A nice drill is to have a learning faller check out the face direction, with their sights, from both sides of the tree. If the back of the face is square, (trivia - even with the very slight curve of the modern bars it may not be exactly exactly square), the sighting from either side will be slightly off by the distance apart of the powerhead locations. This means that the tree has been faced in-between these two sight lines.
Additionally; making the face at a high angle as in open face technique does not allow for use of the dogs. While not a big factor in smaller diameters this dog free cutting, (many cutters with small bars in smaller tree diameter falling), actually remove even the small factory dogs. That results in a huge arm strength fatigue factor over the course of a day.
---
With further regard to the carpenters square trick. When making the level part of the face cut first one can place and use the square on the flat prior to the angled cut being made. The undercut doesn't have to be removed for the square to do its job unless the trees diameter is over 3 feet or so. (I have a bigger square.) Then the face direction can be corrected as needed well before any large re-cutting project is mandated.
A string can be placed and matched to the square for illustrations.
Sighting sticks can be used in very large diameters and clearly are superior.
A really nice teaching tool with the saw off on a safe tree or learning high stump. The saw and square can both be in position at the same time. Then the learning faller can see where both are pointing and understand the powerhead off-set parallax.
---
An additional advantage to checking out the wood of the tree with the face being removed, WITH A DEEPER FACE, is that the cutter can see more of the tree exposed. This has relevance in the world of decay.
{Quick sidebar for the good of the order.}
----
"I then make the bottom notch cut and look down through the verticle cut to watch for the sawchain so I don't cut through the apex."
This is nice for those that have trouble matching cuts and do not have the discipline to check.
Making deeper faces and higher faces does require more skill.
--
"But at 1/8 the narrower notch apex is weaker in side stability then the added sapwood advantage would give . "
Yes, that would be true also.
---
"Cut as low to the flare or ground as you can that’s where all the strongest fiber and extra width for stability is."
Again, good points from the standpoint of wood strength.
Caution here on hazard trees. Ability to look up and escape can override short stump needs.
Cutting lower is more difficult as the wood is denser and also a sawyer can find dirt down there.
--
"Sapwood is much stronger then dorment heartwood............. "
No disputing that. Heartwood is more brittle and behaves like drought stressed sapwood. The flexible strength of sapwood and emphasis of protecting the holding wood at the corners certainly is not under dispute.
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smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
That was nice
But we didn't deal with easier wedging with superior fulcrum placement or why that works so well in larger diameters and taller trees. You did mention something about the need for larger faces being removed by chain saws.
Still curious about the SE lean observation. The why that would be in your location.
Anyone else want to jump in on the predominant lean in your AO?
But we didn't deal with easier wedging with superior fulcrum placement or why that works so well in larger diameters and taller trees. You did mention something about the need for larger faces being removed by chain saws.
Still curious about the SE lean observation. The why that would be in your location.
Anyone else want to jump in on the predominant lean in your AO?
raycarr
ArboristSite Operative
Sure, why not. The area where I spend most of my sawing time, is a North West facing slope, the majority of the trees there have a lean to the SSW. The last place I cut in, basically the other side of hill, faced South East, the trees there leaned to the NW.
Can you help me calculate the Coriolis Effect on the taller trees?
Good job Smoke, easy to visualize, not tough to understand, some of the early stuff cracked me up.
Ray
Can you help me calculate the Coriolis Effect on the taller trees?
Good job Smoke, easy to visualize, not tough to understand, some of the early stuff cracked me up.
Ray
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
C effect
"Can you help me calculate the Coriolis Effect on the taller trees?"
Only in this northern hemisphere.
Simply put.
My trees always spin clockwise as I cut off one or both corners.
"Can you help me calculate the Coriolis Effect on the taller trees?"
Only in this northern hemisphere.
Simply put.
My trees always spin clockwise as I cut off one or both corners.
raycarr
ArboristSite Operative
Ah yes, can be excellerated into the helicopter cut, usefull in thick stands, the prevent hanging up trees.
Ray
Ray
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smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
limb removal
I greatly prefer it due to the self limbing feature.
I greatly prefer it due to the self limbing feature.
raycarr
ArboristSite Operative
I heard that the ACLU was filing against the use of terms like "Dutchman" and "Chinese" cuts as not PC. What is your take on this issue?
Ray
Ray
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
Did you hear?
French fries are suing French toast for name infringement.
They are being represented by Swede.
-----------
OK, wait a minute.
Let's get back to moving the fulcrum.
Somebody explain to me why hinge placement, on larger trees, isn't important from the standpoint of superior leverage.
------------
Perhaps someone who has had made a career of cutting larger trees.
French fries are suing French toast for name infringement.
They are being represented by Swede.
-----------
OK, wait a minute.
Let's get back to moving the fulcrum.
Somebody explain to me why hinge placement, on larger trees, isn't important from the standpoint of superior leverage.
------------
Perhaps someone who has had made a career of cutting larger trees.
windthrown
361 Junkie
I got lost in the details of the debates here.
33.33333333333333333333333% wedgies work or me. Good leverage, good room for wedges, good length of hinge wood. Reasonable rule of thumb.
33.33333333333333333333333% wedgies work or me. Good leverage, good room for wedges, good length of hinge wood. Reasonable rule of thumb.
smokechase II
Addicted to ArboristSite
Segment method of wedging
Just a cautionary line on a weakness in the GOL / Open Face methodology with regard to larger trees.
There is a technique they teach: "the segment method" of calculating whether a wedge(s) can lift a tree the distance needed to get it to go over.
It is based on dimensions.
To try and put it simply; based on a trees diameter (actually distance from wedge to hinge - fulcrum), height and lean, can a wedge(s) of a certain size (height) provide the needed lift?
-------------
http://www.forestapps.com/tips/wedge/wedge.htm
Has a good explanation. Go down to the 10th paragraph.
------------
Where this technique falls short is it makes no attempt to determine if a wedge could lift any given tree. That it doesn't even mention this limitation is revealing.
This is because when you work in smaller timber, realistically resistance isn't much of an issue when compared with larger diameter and taller timber.
-------------
Why is this important on a thread about face depth?
If a falling method doesn't deal with greater resistance, (where a wedge could move a tree far enough but can't be driven because of too much weight), then it reveals itself to be inappropriate overall in larger trees.
Just a cautionary line on a weakness in the GOL / Open Face methodology with regard to larger trees.
There is a technique they teach: "the segment method" of calculating whether a wedge(s) can lift a tree the distance needed to get it to go over.
It is based on dimensions.
To try and put it simply; based on a trees diameter (actually distance from wedge to hinge - fulcrum), height and lean, can a wedge(s) of a certain size (height) provide the needed lift?
-------------
http://www.forestapps.com/tips/wedge/wedge.htm
Has a good explanation. Go down to the 10th paragraph.
------------
Where this technique falls short is it makes no attempt to determine if a wedge could lift any given tree. That it doesn't even mention this limitation is revealing.
This is because when you work in smaller timber, realistically resistance isn't much of an issue when compared with larger diameter and taller timber.
-------------
Why is this important on a thread about face depth?
If a falling method doesn't deal with greater resistance, (where a wedge could move a tree far enough but can't be driven because of too much weight), then it reveals itself to be inappropriate overall in larger trees.
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clearance
Addicted to ArboristSite
Another caution. They say you can move the wedge close to the holding wood to lift the tree, I do not like this because you are lifting the tree almost straight up. Just asking to break the holding wood if you are really beating on it. With the wedge, or wedges at the farthest point from the holding wood, you are pushing the tree over and putting side pressure on the holding wood, which is what you want.
Not going to comment much on the crazy, gaping undercut they show. A humboldt 30 degree works fine 99% of the time. Theres is not a technigue for logging, and it ain't a game.
Not going to comment much on the crazy, gaping undercut they show. A humboldt 30 degree works fine 99% of the time. Theres is not a technigue for logging, and it ain't a game.
Well said.
Ekka
Addicted to ArboristSite
bla bla bla! 
Ekka
Addicted to ArboristSite
Hmmm, that worked then, no posts for a day. 
tree_beard
ArboristSite Operative
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2007
- Messages
- 474
- Reaction score
- 84
Hmmm, that worked then, no posts for a day.
only yours, you bloody love it really....:deadhorse:
Ekka
Addicted to ArboristSite
Sshhhh, we might end up with another 17 pages of who's :censored: is the longest. 
Mine's not very big around, but it's short.
RiverRat2
Serio Tree Freak
Hmmm??????? :monkey:
Sshhhh, we might end up with another 17 pages of who's :censored: is the longest.
Yall are Sick!!!!! weird and sick!!!!!! and what does this have to do with the 1/3rd diameter notch rule???
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