661 Oil Test 32:1 vs 40:1 vs 50:1 ?

[Ron660]

I come back to Arboristsite and what do I find? An oil thread!!! With 140+ pages!!!

Two cycle oil is simple. It has to mix with gas. Stay in suspension. Go through the carb. Lubricate the bearings and bottom end. Go into the combustion chamber. Lube the top end. Help seal the piston rings. Combust and exit the exhaust in a state that will make the birds sing and the flowers bloom. Simple, really!

Two cycle engines run the gamut from water cooled relatively slow running engines to air cooled 20,000 + RPM screaming race engines. As much as we might think our work saws are screamers, they are middle of the road engines. Unless their only purpose is to cut cookies in competition. Race engines are oftentimes broken down and rebuilt after each race. I f I had to rebuild my work saw after every day of cutting, I would sit around at night and watch a screen with a picture of a fire on it. The only time I rev my saw up to full rpm is when I'm tuning them or revving up for a cut. Actually I lied. Sometimes I rev it up just for the hell of it. Most chainsaws produce the max HP at somewhere around 9000+ RPM. And by definition this is where they will produce the most work.

As someone pointed out to me earlier, the important point with 2 cycle engines and two cycle oil is the migration of oil through the engines. Middle of the road two cycle engines do not need uber high end and uber high viscosity race oils. They may in fact be counterproductive.

I'll finish this after. Wife is calling me for dinner. Priorities!

A Dyno test showed my ported 660 max HP was at 9500 rpms. My friend's ported 461 max HP was at 10,500.

 

[KenJax Tree]

I come back to Arboristsite and what do I find? An oil thread!!! With 140+ pages!!!

Two cycle oil is simple. It has to mix with gas. Stay in suspension. Go through the carb. Lubricate the bearings and bottom end. Go into the combustion chamber. Lube the top end. Help seal the piston rings. Combust and exit the exhaust in a state that will make the birds sing and the flowers bloom. Simple, really!

Two cycle engines run the gamut from water cooled relatively slow running engines to air cooled 20,000 + RPM screaming race engines. As much as we might think our work saws are screamers, they are middle of the road engines. Unless their only purpose is to cut cookies in competition. Race engines are oftentimes broken down and rebuilt after each race. I f I had to rebuild my work saw after every day of cutting, I would sit around at night and watch a screen with a picture of a fire on it. The only time I rev my saw up to full rpm is when I'm tuning them or revving up for a cut. Actually I lied. Sometimes I rev it up just for the hell of it. Most chainsaws produce the max HP at somewhere around 9000+ RPM. And by definition this is where they will produce the most work.

As someone pointed out to me earlier, the important point with 2 cycle engines and two cycle oil is the migration of oil through the engines. Middle of the road two cycle engines do not need uber high end and uber high viscosity race oils. They may in fact be counterproductive.

I'll finish this after. Wife is calling me for dinner. Priorities!

Epic isn't it? After 2872 posts all we know is H1-R is too thick to use at 32:1 and solvents suck and will possibly blow up your saw.[emoji15]

 

[bwalker]

I come back to Arboristsite and what do I find? An oil thread!!! With 140+ pages!!!

Two cycle oil is simple. It has to mix with gas. Stay in suspension. Go through the carb. Lubricate the bearings and bottom end. Go into the combustion chamber. Lube the top end. Help seal the piston rings. Combust and exit the exhaust in a state that will make the birds sing and the flowers bloom. Simple, really!

Two cycle engines run the gamut from water cooled relatively slow running engines to air cooled 20,000 + RPM screaming race engines. As much as we might think our work saws are screamers, they are middle of the road engines. Unless their only purpose is to cut cookies in competition. Race engines are oftentimes broken down and rebuilt after each race. I f I had to rebuild my work saw after every day of cutting, I would sit around at night and watch a screen with a picture of a fire on it. The only time I rev my saw up to full rpm is when I'm tuning them or revving up for a cut. Actually I lied. Sometimes I rev it up just for the hell of it. Most chainsaws produce the max HP at somewhere around 9000+ RPM. And by definition this is where they will produce the most work.

As someone pointed out to me earlier, the important point with 2 cycle engines and two cycle oil is the migration of oil through the engines. Middle of the road two cycle engines do not need uber high end and uber high viscosity race oils. They may in fact be counterproductive.

I'll finish this after. Wife is calling me for dinner. Priorities!

This guy gets it..

 

[bwalker]

Epic isn't it? After 2872 posts all we know is H1-R is too thick to use at 32:1 and solvents suck and will possibly blow up your saw.[emoji15]

Yea and all those chemists and petrol engineers that keep adding solvents to the highest rated oils don't know squat. MAY be they should consult with RedBull and he can show them the error of their ways...

 

[RonL]

My priorities for evaluating two cycle oils, in descending order are: peer reviewed independent research ( the peer review on this sight can be contentious ), industrial research, racers experiences, builders experiences, and users experiences. I think that industrial researchers play their cards close to the vest so it is hard to find. When all these sources point to a certain direction i tend to look in that direction. My research, albeit limited, has led me to believe that i will not use anything but synthetic oils. They can be formulated to meet the task at hand, rather than being modified to meet the task at hand. Certain synthetics can be polar, like castor.
Equipment manufacturers contract with oil producers to formulate oils that meet their criteria. One criteria is max profits. The oil may be very good. The independent oil sellers sell oil to meet the needs of the user. If they get the reputation of producing the best oil they sell the most oil.

 

[bwalker]

My priorities for evaluating two cycle oils, in descending order are: peer reviewed independent research ( the peer review on this sight can be contentious ), industrial research, racers experiences, builders experiences, and users experiences. I think that industrial researchers play their cards close to the vest so it is hard to find. When all these sources point to a certain direction i tend to look in that direction. My research, albeit limited, has led me to believe that i will not use anything but synthetic oils. They can be formulated to meet the task at hand, rather than being modified to meet the task at hand. Certain synthetics can be polar, like castor.
Equipment manufacturers contract with oil producers to formulate oils that meet their criteria. One criteria is max profits. The oil may be very good. The independent oil sellers sell oil to meet the needs of the user. If they get the reputation of producing the best oil they sell the most oil.

Castors aren't synthetic and are not polar.
Castors claim to fame is that under high temp conditions it does not burn but rather polymerizes into a grease like substance. Great for preventing metal to metal contact, but terrible for deposits.
Synthetics aren't a bad thing and like anything else some are good and some suck. Same goes for semi synthetics.
I think in many cases for saw use a semi synthetic is the best choice. Now, if your like Dave and only milling I would say a good high temp synthetic would be a good idea. Personaly I would be looking at Motul 800t in that application and at 32:1 or perhaps lower. I would also not hesitate to use Yam 2R in that application at a 32:1 or lower ratio.

 

[bwalker]

One other thing to consider is some engines are just plain dirty burners. Likely because they don't scavenge well. Stihl 026, 036 and to a lesser extent the 044 were terrible in this regard.
The flip side is the Redman 8000 blower I have. The damn thing has been ran hard since the early two thousands, including commercial use for 5+ years on everything from tcw3 marine oil to castor oil blends. The piston skirts are bare metal still showing machine marks,the exhaust port has a very light coating of carbon with no raised deposits, the muffler is bone dry and the piston crown looks text book. It also ran it's original spark plug till this winter. I replaced it just because during an internal inspection. And it's been ran at 32:1 for most of this time.

 

[CR500]

Been using R50 and I'm happy so far. With that said I really like K2 and it is available and the color of it mixed with fuel is hard to mistake with straight gas.

Motul 800 in the 441 did alright ad well.

Sent from my non internal combustion device.

 

[RonL]

I have ten saws now. From an MS 200 T to a MS 660. All, except the 660, use the same bar and chain. The 660 uses whatever bar and chain that I need it for. The rest rest of the saws are used for whatever purpose they are most efficient at. The 660 is most used with .404 semi chain for cutting up larger rounds for splitting.

Some time ago I bought a liter of H1R, A liter of K2, 4 liters of 710 2T, and 4 liters of 800 2T.
My initial intent was to test all of them.
I could not get my head around the fact that H1R had to have the needles opened up and used 15% more mix. The 660 had the dual port muffler, I rejetted it, and removed the limiters. I was going to make a seperate mix with H1R to use in the 660 to do my own testing. When it needed rebuilding, I was going to break it down and inspect it. I decided that I did not have the time or inclination to maintain seperate mixes. I suspect that when I concluded my tests it would have shown to me that I had used 15% more mix.
I bought Sunoco Optima in 5 gallon cans, mostly because it had a long shelf life and was ethanol free. It was my emergency supply for the generator and was then used for the 2 cycles.
I used the K2. It worked well. I now use Motul 710 2T. I used the H1R and 800 2T, along with beeswax and various microcrystalline waxes, to experiment with bullet lubes. If you think 2 cycle oil threads are contentious, try a bullet lube thread.

 

[RonL]

I'm aware that castor is a bean oil. I was under the impression that it was polar. My point was that certain synthetics are polar as I thought castor was.

 

[mdavlee]

Castors aren't synthetic and are not polar.
Castors claim to fame is that under high temp conditions it does not burn but rather polymerizes into a grease like substance. Great for preventing metal to metal contact, but terrible for deposits.
Synthetics aren't a bad thing and like anything else some are good and some suck. Same goes for semi synthetics.
I think in many cases for saw use a semi synthetic is the best choice. Now, if your like Dave and only milling I would say a good high temp synthetic would be a good idea. Personaly I would be looking at Motul 800t in that application and at 32:1 or perhaps lower. I would also not hesitate to use Yam 2R in that application at a 32:1 or lower ratio.

Motul has done great. The price is a little higher than the others is my only complaint really. All of them suck for fumes when you're burning 1-2 tanks in 9' of cut and maybe 20 minutes. A band ill would be much better but that's a bit out of reach right now.

 

[RonL]

I am using Motul 710 2T at 32 to one. I still believe that 32 to 1 offers better ring sealing and bearing protection. I believe that Motul 710 2T is as good as any and better than most.

 

[porsche965]

Motul has done great. The price is a little higher than the others is my only complaint really. All of them suck for fumes when you're burning 1-2 tanks in 9' of cut and maybe 20 minutes. A band ill would be much better but that's a bit out of reach right now.

Mike, It might be a PITA but if your milling site is electric convenient what about setting one of those big round portable barn fans up to get the fumes away from you?

 

[KenJax Tree]

I don't need or want the best, just good enough works for me.

 

[mdavlee]

Mike, It might be a PITA but if your milling site is electric convenient what about setting one of those big round portable barn fans up to get the fumes away from you?

Most of the time if I can load it or move it now it goes home. If it's too big I do it in the woods so no electricity for a half mile or so. I try to set up with the wind at my back. Some days with no breeze it's kind of bad.

 

[bwalker]

Been using R50 and I'm happy so far. With that said I really like K2 and it is available and the color of it mixed with fuel is hard to mistake with straight gas.

Motul 800 in the 441 did alright ad well.

Sent from my non internal combustion device.

I'm am running K2 now as well. I wish the color was a dark blue or green as I am paranoid about running a saw on straight gas. Mobil mx2t drove me crazy in this regard too!

 

[bwalker]

I have ten saws now. From an MS 200 T to a MS 660. All, except the 660, use the same bar and chain. The 660 uses whatever bar and chain that I need it for. The rest rest of the saws are used for whatever purpose they are most efficient at. The 660 is most used with .404 semi chain for cutting up larger rounds for splitting.

Some time ago I bought a liter of H1R, A liter of K2, 4 liters of 710 2T, and 4 liters of 800 2T.
My initial intent was to test all of them.
I could not get my head around the fact that H1R had to have the needles opened up and used 15% more mix. The 660 had the dual port muffler, I rejetted it, and removed the limiters. I was going to make a seperate mix with H1R to use in the 660 to do my own testing. When it needed rebuilding, I was going to break it down and inspect it. I decided that I did not have the time or inclination to maintain seperate mixes. I suspect that when I concluded my tests it would have shown to me that I had used 15% more mix.
I bought Sunoco Optima in 5 gallon cans, mostly because it had a long shelf life and was ethanol free. It was my emergency supply for the generator and was then used for the 2 cycles.
I used the K2. It worked well. I now use Motul 710 2T. I used the H1R and 800 2T, along with beeswax and various microcrystalline waxes, to experiment with bullet lubes. If you think 2 cycle oil threads are contentious, try a bullet lube thread.

Bullet lubes even matter less than two cycle oil and your right those threads get crazy!

Most of the time if I can load it or move it now it goes home. If it's too big I do it in the woods so no electricity for a half mile or so. I try to set up with the wind at my back. Some days with no breeze it's kind of bad.

I would look into a half face respirator with the appropriate cartridges.

 

[Flatie]

I am using Motul 710 2T at 32 to one. I still believe that 32 to 1 offers better ring sealing and bearing protection. I believe that Motul 710 2T is as good as any and better than most.

Why 710 over 800? How did you find the 800?

 

[RonL]

My original intent in researching oils was to find an oil that would give me the best performance, but more importantly, would give me the best protection. The saws I have now will probably be the saws i will be using for the rest of my life.

 

[RonL]

Why 710 over 800? How did you find the 800?

What I think is an educated guess. Perhaps others may think it stupid. I think it may be to viscous. The engineers at Motul specifically formulated 710 2T for the purpose at hand.