661 Oil Test 32:1 vs 40:1 vs 50:1 ?

[Andyshine77]

When milling I got zero drool at 25:1 with it. In the 550 cutting firewood it drools.

Makes sense.

 

[scallywag]

That looks really good. I myself have never seen 800 burn like that, I always see oil covering the entire inside of the muffler can. Now a part of that may or may not be do to having an open up exhaust.

As far as I know the muffler is a stock spec Aussie one. The piston did have some carbon on top but I suspect its from the previous oil (Shell).
Here's the plug from 98 octane and Motul 800 @ 25:1.

 

[bwalker]

I understand this, however I have a hard time believing certain things, especially some of the information provided by the manufactures. The theory of an oil being more slick makes me skeptical, to be honest I call total BS on that. The issue is about providing stable viscosity, film strength. Additives like PIB sound more like a way to get around lower quality base stocks than anything else.

I've ran quite a bit of 800 and 710. I find 800 to drool oil at most any ratio. 710 is fine as premix IMHO.

I still prefer the behavior of ester oils, which is noticeable when you use some as assembly lubricant. R2 just sits on the surface, ester oils penetrate and cling to the surfaces.

Just my thoughts take them for what they are.

Who mentioned more slick? And I would lump oil used as assembly lube that "penetrates" the surface in with the previous claim.
PIB isn't an additive, but a base oil and a fine one at that. It isn't a way to get around anything.
Esters have trade offs like anything else.

 

[Andyshine77]

Who mentioned more slick? And I would lump oil used as assembly lube that "penetrates" the surface in with the precious claim.
PIB isn't an additive, but a base oil and a fine one at that. It isn't a way to get around anything.
Esters have trade offs like anything else.

Ester oils can penetrate into the metal, other oil simply float on the surface. Obviously this is one of the many benefits of ester based oils.

 

[CR888]

PIB is a base stock, like bright stock. lts not an additive at all.

 

[bwalker]

Ester oils can penetrate into the metal, other oil simply float on the surface. Obviously this is one of the many benefits of ester based oils.

I don't think I buy that at all.

 

[bwalker]

PIB is a base stock, like bright stock. lts not an additive at all.

Yes, and as I mentioned a good one at that. Most all of the oils that Meet JASO FC/FD and ISO-L-EGD are PIB/mineral oil blends.

 

[CR888]

PIB costs more than bright stock for a good reason. What is not in an oil is just as important as what is! Good base stock cost and cheaper oils can stretch the envelope as far as why they are cheap.

 

[bwalker]

One other point. Mineral oil can mean anything from solvent refined crap (group 1) to highly refined products than can be considered synthetic (group 3).

 

[KG441c]

One other point. Mineral oil can mean anything from solvent refined crap (group 1) to highly refined products than can be considered synthetic (group 3).

A question in my head. 2 saws ran at 100:1 to failure. R2 and 800t. Which do u think would go first?

 

[bwalker]

A question in my head. 2 saws ran at 100:1 to failure. R2 and 800t. Which do u think would go first?

Really no way to say with any certainty.
I do think both would run a very long time before failure.

 

[CR888]

l run Fb GD TCI mineral oil and l think its quality, but a very good point that mineral oil can get a bad name from some of the cheaper blends like full synthetic can be over rated because its 'full synthetic' ect ect. lnteresting fact about bombadier jet ski oil injection system is that at idle it recieves no oil, the injection system feeds oil only when its under way. The thought of that would make some folks eyes round here google

 

[bwalker]

l run Fb GD TCI mineral oil and l think its quality, but a very good point that mineral oil can get a bad name from some of the cheaper blends like full synthetic can be over rated because its 'full synthetic' ect ect. lnteresting fact about bombadier jet ski oil injection system is that at idle it recieves no oil, the injection system feeds oil only when its under way. The thought of that would make some folks eyes round here google

That's true in regards to the Bombardier system. And why not? Oil migration is almost zero at idle. As far as I know the system worked pretty well.

 

[one.man.band]

FWIW.

About the year 2001 we started to use PIB at work to blend into mix designs (nothing related to lubricants). For 15 years I breathed in more burned PIBs than I care to remember. The PIB was added in to obtain a workable viscosity. Headaches, sinus problems and coughing globs were the norm for not just myself, but for everyone on the crew. Different companies different crews through the years. Some of the mix designs did not contain PIBs, and the difference in the ability to breath was apparent.

Asked the materials engineer at work about why PIBs are used in some mix designs and not others. (We just called it Poly and still do). He replied it was due to cost, ie. oil prices. When the price of oil was high, Poly was added into the blend to reduce cost, when oil price was low, no poly was added. Poly price fluctuates the opposite of oil price.

When asked the Mat Eng what is poly?....reply was.....you know the little beads that are used to make styrofoam cups? After hearing that, asked our safety engineer about it. He did not have any info on what effects burning poly had. He did tell me that most permanent respiratory problems occur about 20 years after being initially exposed to whatever.

Two years ago, had the opportunity to speak with a high up guy from the parent company of the US company who was the contractor/producer working for us at the time. Parent company was based in France. He told me that there are oil tankers, anchored just 7 miles out who will stay put for months if need be, to wait for oil prices to go up a couple of pennies. When they do, they come floating into dock to deliver the crude to maximize profit.

If it were me, for safety's sake would look for a blend of oil with the least amount of poly % in the mix. Most safety sheets and patents show a wide range of poly % that is permitted in a particular blend. Guessing that this is due more about cost savings depending on oil price.

The PIB is not a very good lubricant by itself. In a performance application, would stay away from a mix oil that uses PIB as a main ingredient. Some is necessary for cleanliness. Take a look at some safety sheets for the FD rated low smoke oils. Most all have a PIB content above 40%. Keeps things clean, no doubt.

The yamaha engineers who were part of the reason behind the new tests required for the FD rating talk about PIBs here: http://global.yamaha-motor.com/about/craftsmanship/technical_review/publish/no35/pdf/0008.pdf

Gordon Jennings in the 1970's went through much of what is being rehashed in this thread here: http://www.bridgestonemotorcycle.com/documents/oilpremix6.pdf

edit: forgot to add the 2nd link

 

[Whitespider]

I'm stickin' with oil... preferably designated 2-stroke oil for mixing with gas and and pouring in the fuel tanks of my 2-stroke powered stuff.
Yup... oil... I'm stickin' with oil... can't go wrong with oil.
Dad always said... any brand oil is better than no oil, clean oil is better than dirty oil, near everything else is just the sales pitch... ain't been able to prove him wrong yet.
*

 

[Bwildered]

That's a good point, those running richer oil ratios are also breathing in excess quantities of exhaust fumes of these burnt or unburnt chemicals, running at the recommended 50:1 ratio reduces that problem but not completely, those having 40 a day don't have to worry about it too much they pretty well much have one foot in the grave already.
Thansk

 

[bwalker]

FWIW.

About the year 2001 we started to use PIB at work to blend into mix designs (nothing related to lubricants). For 15 years I breathed in more burned PIBs than I care to remember. The PIB was added in to obtain a workable viscosity. Headaches, sinus problems and coughing globs were the norm for not just myself, but for everyone on the crew. Different companies different crews through the years. Some of the mix designs did not contain PIBs, and the difference in the ability to breath was apparent.

Asked the materials engineer at work about why PIBs are used in some mix designs and not others. (We just called it Poly and still do). He replied it was due to cost, ie. oil prices. When the price of oil was high, Poly was added into the blend to reduce cost, when oil price was low, no poly was added. Poly price fluctuates the opposite of oil price.

When asked the Mat Eng what is poly?....reply was.....you know the little beads that are used to make styrofoam cups? After hearing that, asked our safety engineer about it. He did not have any info on what effects burning poly had. He did tell me that most permanent respiratory problems occur about 20 years after being initially exposed to whatever.

Two years ago, had the opportunity to speak with a high up guy from the parent company of the US company who was the contractor/producer working for us at the time. Parent company was based in France. He told me that there are oil tankers, anchored just 7 miles out who will stay put for months if need be, to wait for oil prices to go up a couple of pennies. When they do, they come floating into dock to deliver the crude to maximize profit.

If it were me, for safety's sake would look for a blend of oil with the least amount of poly % in the mix. Most safety sheets and patents show a wide range of poly % that is permitted in a particular blend. Guessing that this is due more about cost savings depending on oil price.

The PIB is not a very good lubricant by itself. In a performance application, would stay away from a mix oil that uses PIB as a main ingredient. Some is necessary for cleanliness. Take a look at some safety sheets for the FD rated low smoke oils. Most all have a PIB content above 40%. Keeps things clean, no doubt.

The yamaha engineers who were part of the reason behind the new tests required for the FD rating talk about PIBs here: http://global.yamaha-motor.com/about/craftsmanship/technical_review/publish/no35/pdf/0008.pdf

Gordon Jennings in the 1970's went through much of what is being rehashed in this thread here: http://www.bridgestonemotorcycle.com/documents/oilpremix6.pdf

edit: forgot to add the 2nd link

PIB is a term that refers to a variety of products, as do esters.
PIB is not what makes Styrofoam cups as that's poly styrene.
PIB is an excellant lubricant when the right types and viscosity product is used.
Yamalube has two cycle lubes figured out and uses PIB.

 

[bwalker]

That's a good point, those running richer oil ratios are also breathing in excess quantities of exhaust fumes of these burnt or unburnt chemicals, running at the recommended 50:1 ratio reduces that problem but not completely, those having 40 a day don't have to worry about it too much they pretty well much have one foot in the grave already.
Thansk

Exhaust emissions severity depends more on carb tuning and scavenging efficiency than oil ratio. Besides the majority of unburnt hc coming from a two stroke is fuel as oil makes up such a small percentage of pre mix.
If your concerned buy a strato saw.

 

[Hedgerow]

Unrelated question..
I bought a freshly rebuilt mariner fuel injected 175. It is oil injected and is still in it's break in period.. Why do they suggest to run pre mix oil in the tank for break in? Is there not a risk of running too lean doing this? I am not a boat guy.. It smokes a lot after a proper warm up though, eventually cleaning out after 1/2 -3/4 throttle run to the preferred fishing area.
Thoughts?

 

[Moparmyway]

Boat motors have nothing to do with chainsaws ............ whats wrong with ya ???
Pre mix in an injected application ??
Watch out for the 2 cycle police .................. here they come !!!!

My hypothesis is that the injection system adds little to zero oil at idle, and they want you to mix in some pre-mix in the fuel untill the motor breaks in properly