661 Oil Test 32:1 vs 40:1 vs 50:1 ?

[Deleted member 83629]

welcome to the dark side enjoy your K2 now try some 927.

 

[SAWMIKAZE]

welcome to the dark side enjoy your K2 now try some 927.

Im really not that into it my dude.

 

[Deleted member 83629]

okay then try some ultra and report the serious nature of the smell.

 

[KenJax Tree]

[emoji1]

 

[Trx250r180]

My daily driver pickup was ticking so i put a gallon of hydrolic oil in it ,and it is still in there a week later ,still has good pressure ,no ticks ,i did not have any engine oil at the house so i ran what i had .Was that ,bar oil ,or 2 stroke mix .

 

[redbull660]

Two cycle oil typically doesn't have very many additives. Usually a detergent and that's about it in most cases. The anti seizure properties are determined by how much bright or PIB is added or by the molecular weight of the base oil in the case of most ester oils.
OEM oils many times do have a fuel stabilizer in addition to the above.

"usually a detergent and that's about it in most cases" Ya know...I think YOUshould provide some examples...some proof to back up your position.

Here are mine -

http://www.maximausa.com/product/formula-k2/
Formula K2 is a very high performance 100% synthetic 2-cycle lubricant utilizing 2000 centistoke esters along with special additives to achieve outstanding levels of protection and cleanliness. Friction and wear, ring sticking and exhaust tract (power valve) carbon are virtually eliminated. Also provides higher levels of rust & corrosion protection.

--------------------------------------------------
https://www.klotzlube.com/Ecommerce/site/content/PDFs/TECH/KL-104-Tech-Sheet.pdf
R50 -

anti scuff - "techniplate lubricity system for superior film strength and anti scuff " system isn't just oil there is an additive
anti wear - "extreme load carrying capacity to eliminate bearing and ring wear
detergency - clean burn technology reduces carbon residue build up
corrosion inhibitors - anti oxidation protection against rust and corrosion
another one that would pertain to power valves - "power valve formula


----------------------------------------------
https://www.motul.com/us/en-US/prod...ine-off-road--2?f[engine_type]=22&f[range]=21

Motul 800 -
"by selecting esters over other high performance synthetic base stocks and combining them with an innovative additive package..."

innovative and package being the key words. Pretty sure they aren't using just 1 or 2 additives.
-----------------------------------------------

http://www.stihlusa.com/products/oils--lubricants-and-fuels/oils-and-lubricants/oilhpultra/

Stihl Ultra -

"outstanding engine cleaning characteristic"
"plus “ultra” lubricating qualities that are superior to other 2-cycle engine oils"
http://www.stihlusa.com/WebContent/CMSFileLibrary/MSDS/Stihl_HP_Ultra.pdf 0-20% listed as additives. I'm guessing it's not all detergents because it sure burns dirty. Point there is well more than 1 or 2 additives.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produ...ssional-synthetic-2-stroke-oil/?code=ATPPK-EA

amsoil saber - all kinds of talk about additives.
-----------------------------------------------

and the legendary Mobil 1 mx2t... see pic attached.
additives...
anti seize -
anti scuff-
"Formulated with premium additives and synthetic fluids to protect against exhaust port blocking" ok so now there are just additives and there are PREMIUM additives...so there is a difference in quality.

--------------------------------------------------------
and best of all your beloved yamalube 2r...

https://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/docs/MSDS_Yamaha_Yamalube 2R.pdf

"performance additive MIXTURE" = 16-20% of the ENTIRE volume of the bottle! So 16-20% of the whole bottle of 2r is additives!
---------------------------------------------------------

I know I know, your right and I'm wrong and none of this makes a difference. Tell ya what though...1/5th of the yamalube is additives. I'm guessing since it takes up 1/5th of the bottle that it's pretty important stuff.

Ok well I'm off to wax my saws!

 

[bwalker]

"usually a detergent and that's about it in most cases" Ya know...I think YOUshould provide some examples...some proof to back up your position.

Here are mine -

http://www.maximausa.com/product/formula-k2/
Formula K2 is a very high performance 100% synthetic 2-cycle lubricant utilizing 2000 centistoke esters along with special additives to achieve outstanding levels of protection and cleanliness. Friction and wear, ring sticking and exhaust tract (power valve) carbon are virtually eliminated. Also provides higher levels of rust & corrosion protection.

--------------------------------------------------
https://www.klotzlube.com/Ecommerce/site/content/PDFs/TECH/KL-104-Tech-Sheet.pdf
R50 -

anti scuff - "techniplate lubricity system for superior film strength and anti scuff " system isn't just oil there is an additive
anti wear - "extreme load carrying capacity to eliminate bearing and ring wear
detergency - clean burn technology reduces carbon residue build up
corrosion inhibitors - anti oxidation protection against rust and corrosion
another one that would pertain to power valves - "power valve formula


----------------------------------------------
https://www.motul.com/us/en-US/prod...ine-off-road--2?f[engine_type]=22&f[range]=21

Motul 800 -
"by selecting esters over other high performance synthetic base stocks and combining them with an innovative additive package..."

innovative and package being the key words. Pretty sure they aren't using just 1 or 2 additives.
-----------------------------------------------

http://www.stihlusa.com/products/oils--lubricants-and-fuels/oils-and-lubricants/oilhpultra/

Stihl Ultra -

"outstanding engine cleaning characteristic"
"plus “ultra” lubricating qualities that are superior to other 2-cycle engine oils"
http://www.stihlusa.com/WebContent/CMSFileLibrary/MSDS/Stihl_HP_Ultra.pdf 0-20% listed as additives. I'm guessing it's not all detergents because it sure burns dirty. Point there is well more than 1 or 2 additives.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produ...ssional-synthetic-2-stroke-oil/?code=ATPPK-EA

amsoil saber - all kinds of talk about additives.
-----------------------------------------------

and the legendary Mobil 1 mx2t... see pic attached.
additives...
anti seize -
anti scuff-
"Formulated with premium additives and synthetic fluids to protect against exhaust port blocking" ok so now there are just additives and there are PREMIUM additives...so there is a difference in quality.

--------------------------------------------------------
and best of all your beloved yamalube 2r...

https://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/docs/MSDS_Yamaha_Yamalube 2R.pdf

"performance additive MIXTURE" = 16-20% of the ENTIRE volume of the bottle! So 16-20% of the whole bottle of 2r is additives!
---------------------------------------------------------

I know I know, your right and I'm wrong and none of this makes a difference. Tell ya what though...1/5th of the yamalube is additives. I'm guessing since it takes up 1/5th of the bottle that it's pretty important stuff.

Ok well I'm off to WAX my saws!

I posted some virgin oil analysis early in this thread, which backup what I am telling you.


Performance additives can contain PIB and the like as its pretty vague.
Like myself and others said along time ago msds are for shipping and storage and not much else.
No need for the tone in the last part of this post. Unless you seek to turn this thread back to negative.

 

[redbull660]

by the way I emailed Andrew about my earlier post about the additives. Keep in mind he's a scientist not a sales rep.

-------------------------------
Andrew, see link.
http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...-vs-40-1-vs-50-1.276534/page-335#post-5536262

2 posts below bwalker chimes in.

did I get it right or no?
--------------------------

Your point was valid I think. Mr. Walker is completely uninformed though. A lot goes into 2-stroke additives beyond detergents. I suppose I can’t say for sure about other companies to know exactly what goes into it, but the Bel-Ray 2-stroke oils have a lot beyond just detergents in our additive systems.


Testing of other company’s 2-stroke products for marine and powersports applications leads me to the conclusion that some may limit it at detergency additives and leave the rest of the job to the base fluids, but that any of the high performance brands definitely add more complicated additive packages to their products.


AndrewHodges, OMA I
Product Line Manager, Powersports Division | Bel-Ray Company, LLC
Office: (732) 378-4064 | Fax: (732) 378-4064
E-mail:[email protected]

 

[bwalker]

by the way I emailed Andrew about my earlier post about the additives. Keep in mind he's a scientist not a sales rep.

-------------------------------
Andrew, see link.
http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...-vs-40-1-vs-50-1.276534/page-335#post-5536262

2 posts below bwalker chimes in.

did I get it right or no?
--------------------------

Your point was valid I think. Mr. Walker is completely uninformed though. A lot goes into 2-stroke additives beyond detergents. I suppose I can’t say for sure about other companies to know exactly what goes into it, but the Bel-Ray 2-stroke oils have a lot beyond just detergents in our additive systems.


Testing of other company’s 2-stroke products for marine and powersports applications leads me to the conclusion that some may limit it at detergency additives and leave the rest of the job to the base fluids, but that any of the high performance brands definitely add more complicated additive packages to their products.


AndrewHodges, OMA I
Product Line Manager, Powersports Division | Bel-Ray Company, LLC
Office: (732) 378-4064 | Fax: (732) 378-4064
E-mail:[email protected]

Andrew is mistaken and as I said previously I have posted the analysis to prove it. It really isn't that complicated.. and what does it even matter? In your initial post you stated a few things in regards to ratio that where simply incorrect based on false assumptions like you often do.
What ever is in Belray formulation it clearly isn't worth a darn.

 

[redbull660]

Andrew is mistaken and as I said previously I have posted the analysis to prove it. It really isn't that complicated.. and what does it even matter? In your initial post you stated a few things in regards to ratio that where simply incorrect based on false assumptions like you often do.
What ever is in Belray formulation it clearly isn't worth a darn.

whatever dude.

 

[bwalker]

whatever dude.

Yea, whatever..

 

[Trx250r180]

Is it ok to start running bel-ray again ?

 

[blsnelling]

I don't want to hear I told you so, because no one here has posted this in 335 pages.

Anyway...

One reason to run more oil (in many cases), would be to get more additives into the engine.

hypothetical bottle of "xyz" oil (the make up/formulation)
80% oil
10% solvents
10% additives - corrosion inhibitors, anti wear, anti seize, friction reducer, detergents, anti smoke...stuff like that.
----
100%

Say you dump in a typical 4oz of xyz in...

so 3.2oz = oil, .4oz = solvents, .4oz = additives.

4oz - 32:1= 1.00 gal
4oz - 40:1 = 1.25 gal so @ 40:1 you've diluted/stretched your .40z of additives by 25% over 32:1
4oz - 50:1 = 1.56 gal and @ 50:1 you've diluted/stretched your .4oz of additives by 56%. over 32:1


I did say in most cases. Additive packages are all over the map...ie. how much of which and quality of which that make up that typical 10%.

Stihl ultra additives are specific to saws. (saws only?) They say you can run 50:1. So their additive package probably good enough at 50:1.

However, many of these other oils aren't geared towards saws. So running extra oil and thus extra additives (vs stihl ultra) = probably a good thing. Unless you know the make up of the oil and that the additive package is super strong and thus could be run at 50:1. oils that come to mind for that would be ultra, 800, h1r, and maybe amsoil since they shout 100:1 all the time.


I'm not suggesting anything here. I do think I am presenting something that hasn't been presented here before. Personally I'll error on the side of caution as additives are very important.

Suppose for a second that there may be some truth in this. What difference does it make?

 

[one.man.band]

Oil ratio is mostly dictated by rpms and load, which are what determines oil migration time through a motor.

bsfc

 

[porsche965]

I've found different saws run better on different oils at different ratios.

Where do I go from here?

 

[bwalker]

bsfc

No.

 

[Deleted member 83629]

try some outboard oil if your brave enough or maybe some supertech air cooled or even poulan oil.

 

[redbull660]

Suppose for a second that there may be some truth in this. What difference does it make?

some truth. good grief.

Do I really have to spell everything out for you?

Here ya go. Basically...

all I did was provide more reasoning to run more oil.

I said additives were very important.

I said you get 56% less of the additives in the engine by running 50:1 vs 32:1. Point there is even if 50:1 is enough oil, your still getting less additives. That could be good or bad depending on the quality of said additives.

Think carefully about that..."even if 50:1 has enough oil, your still getting less of the additives."

I don't care what you take away from it as long as...

1. you don't say there is only 1-2 additive in 2t oil. Of course there is more than 1-2 additives in the oils we are using! I mean good grief that should go with out saying! It's like me saying the sky is blue and you argue that it's green just to argue....it's soo absurd it's mind boggling.

Look at the msds's http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...1-results-info-condensed.277566/#post-5305417

oil formulated = they are all basically like the following...

- base oils
- may or may not have solvents
- additive package.



I am giving reasons to run more oil and your arguing with me. I mean yes I know you don't like me. But good grief use your head...don't you realize you are making arguments hypocritical to your very own views on oil.

 

[one.man.band]

No.

your description.

edit. somehow i quoted myself. lol.

 

[bwalker]

I've found different saws run better on different oils at different ratios.

Where do I go from here?

I have yet to

I've found different saws run better on different oils at different ratios.

Where do I go from here?

There are a few things that cause this, but most often it isn't the oils fault. Using the wrong oil for the application, poor port design and bad carb tuning all can cause issues like you mention.
I had a cr500 engine that would literally digest any oil combo you through at it from 20 to 50:1 with out issue or even changing the carb settings. When I first set the bike up it only required one step leaner pilot jet and that was it. Very forgiving motor. On the opposite spectrum I have a Stihl 260 I Just bought that is a complete dog out of the box and is very sensitive to change in carb tuning and oil ratio. I believe this is partially because the motor is so choked up in the muffler and carb.