661 Oil Test 32:1 vs 40:1 vs 50:1 ?

[KG441c]

You are making the assumption that more is better.

That didnt explain why and Im curious also?

 

[bwalker]

I'm comparing viscosity lab results which is related to film strength. The greater the film strength more protection but not necessarily more performance from a certain size chainsaw.

If you never get to the point were you need that film strength what good is it doing you? Why not run 10w90 in your truck? And there are trade offs. High viscosity oils do not and can not burn as clean.

 

[redbull660]

testing motul...

IMO - to do it properly. You would need to test 710 and 800 at 32:1 40:1 45:1 50:1 and measure - times, temps, and how consistent the temps are.

- Each oil out there, is obviously different, and produces peak performance at different mix ratios. To say that I'm going to just run 32:1 of whatever, is simply foolish. So to do it right, again in my opinion one needs to test several mix ratios for each oil, to find the optimal mix for THAT oil.

- Next once you found the optimal mix for several oils you could run them against each other to find which oil ran the fastest, most consistent temps, etc.

- The problem I see with doing all that, is that in my discussions with Belray - the guy readily admitted that most oils would perform pretty darn close!!!

So we could spend all this time and money, just to (most likely) prove EXACTLY what he said. Times and temps are pretty close!.......ONCE you find optimal mix ratio for each oil. That is the KEY.


So what is the difference then? Protection. How do we figure which oil has the best protection? Look at and take apart a lot of saws!

Soooo I choose H1R because:

1. Randy (Mastermind) has a long track record of running H1R in his PORTED saws with great success.

2. On paper it most closely resembles Stihl Ultra (which was designed for chainsaws!)

3. Talking with belray...if you only look at/consider the non biased info given, you can learn a lot. http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...1-results-info-condensed.277566/#post-5305420

4. considering my testing so far. you can't run belray at 32:1 in a stock saw. Maybe in a ported. My not in a stock...we'll test my 660 to guage that as well.


But to just test a bunch of oils all at 32:1 ... only thing your going to prove is which one has a good mix ratio at 32:1 ...nothing to do with protection. Because most likely the fastest 32:1 would have the most solvent in it that would combust easier than the actual oil.

Hence you wouldn't actually really be running 32:1 oil. you'd be running like 40:1 oil with 20% solvent in it. And that would win because it was the fastest. And everyone would FEELL good cuz they mixed at 32:1.

And EVEN THEN ...there would be no real track record of protection like Randy and H1R. Just a bunch of conflicting hearsay from a bunch of different most likely unreliable sources. Far less controlled than Randy sending out his saws and saying I run H1R at 32:1 ...at least there you have some degree of controlled/known variables.



You guys do what you wanna do. But I'm going with H1R. and yeah the only thing I'll be proving is what mix ratio works best in a stock 661 and stock 660.

I am not about to test 4 mix ratios in 710 or 800 or k2 or yamawhatever or anything else, just to find out that times and temps at the optimal ratios for each one are nearly identical. At which point the only thing left to do would be either default back to Randy's track record with H1R OR default to a bunch of less reliable hearsay ...well it did this for me and this one did this for my saw but in this other dude's saw it sucked and I don't know and it would never end.

 

[redbull660]

I've thought the same but I'm staying with plenty of oil (32:1) in my ported saw. Just for kicks, here's a comparison of different oil film strengths (viscosity) to oil ratios:
Belray H1R at 32:1 is equilvalent to Motul 800 off-road at 42:1
Lucas 32:1 = Motul 800 off-road at 100:1
Motul 800 off-road at 32:1 = Belray H1R at 25:1
Motul 800 off-road at 32:1 = Stihl hp ultra at 17:1
Klotz R50 at 32:1 = Motul 800 off-road at 38:1

film strength is not only a factor of viscosity. There are other contributions to film strength and even based on viscosity, it is not a 1:1 ratio of film strength to viscosity.

 

[blsnelling]

The only thing this test really does is test for optimal performance. It will tell us very little about protection (temps), and nothing about how clean it burns. IMHO, those tests should be completed first, and then the winner tested for optimal performance.

 

[KG441c]

Im still not understanding why the thicker higher viscosity wont protect the bottom end as well as an oil rated at half the viscosity. Forget the topend and carbon. What about the bottomend

 

[bwalker]

I agree, why waste your time testing when the tests are not valid anyways. And the Belray tech is right. You are not going to notice any differance in cut times, etc that cant be accounted for by the many uncontrolled variable in your testing methodology.

 

[bwalker]

Im still not understanding why the thicker higher viscosity wont protect the bottom end as well as an oil rated at half the viscosity. Forget the topend and carbon. What about the bottomend

In all likely hood they may, but again, if you dont need that protection, what good is it doing you? Are you prepared to deal with the negative side effects?

 

[bwalker]

The only thing this test really does is test for optimal performance. It will tell us very little about protection (temps), and nothing about how clean it burns. IMHO, those tests should be completed first, and then the winner tested for optimal performance.

With all do respect. ISO and JASO have already done this with the EGD and , FC/FD tests respectively. Start with an actually certified oils and try them. Pick the one you like best and rock on.

 

[blsnelling]

I've always said, after some point, better isn't really better. If your application can't benefit from it, it's no better. With that said, I fully believe that an ester synthetic will give better protection than R2, or similar, in a near lean seize situation. Then the question becomes, which synthetic ester gives the best protection with the fewest negative side affects.

 

[Ron660]

testing motul...

IMO - to do it properly. You would need to test 710 and 800 at 32:1 40:1 45:1 50:1 and measure - times, temps, and how consistent the temps are.

- Each oil out there, is obviously different, and produces peak performance at different mix ratios. To say that I'm going to just run 32:1 of whatever, is simply foolish. So to do it right, again in my opinion one needs to test several mix ratios for each oil, to find the optimal mix for THAT oil.

- Next once you found the optimal mix for several oils you could run them against each other to find which oil ran the fastest, most consistent temps, etc.

- The problem I see with doing all that, is that in my discussions with Belray - the guy readily admitted that most oils would perform pretty darn close!!!

So we could spend all this time and money, just to (most likely) prove EXACTLY what he said. Times and temps are pretty close!.......ONCE you find optimal mix ratio for each oil. That is the KEY.


So what is the difference then? Protection. How do we figure which oil has the best protection? Look at and take apart a lot of saws!

Soooo I choose H1R because:

1. Randy (Mastermind) has a long track record of running H1R in his PORTED saws with great success.

2. On paper it most closely resembles Stihl Ultra (which was designed for chainsaws!)

3. Talking with belray...if you only look at/consider the non biased info given, you can learn a lot. http://www.arboristsite.com/communi...1-results-info-condensed.277566/#post-5305420

4. considering my testing so far. you can't run belray at 32:1 in a stock saw. Maybe in a ported. My not in a stock...we'll test my 660 to guage that as well.


But to just test a bunch of oils all at 32:1 ... only thing your going to prove is which one has a good mix ratio at 32:1 ...nothing to do with protection. Because most likely the fastest 32:1 would have the most solvent in it that would combust easier than the actual oil.

Hence you wouldn't actually really be running 32:1 oil. you'd be running like 40:1 oil with 20% solvent in it. And that would win because it was the fastest. And everyone would FEELL good cuz they mixed at 32:1.

And EVEN THEN ...there would be no real track record of protection like Randy and H1R. Just a bunch of conflicting hearsay from a bunch of different most likely unreliable sources. Far less controlled than Randy sending out his saws and saying I run H1R at 32:1 ...at least there you have some degree of controlled/known variables.



You guys do what you wanna do. But I'm going with H1R. and yeah the only thing I'll be proving is what mix ratio works best in a stock 661 and stock 660.

I am not about to test 4 mix ratios in 710 or 800 or k2 or yamawhatever or anything else, just to find out that times and temps at the optimal ratios for each one are nearly identical. At which point the only thing left to do would be either default back to Randy's track record with H1R OR default to a bunch of less reliable hearsay ...well it did this for me and this one did this for my saw but in this other dude's saw it sucked and I don't know and it would never end.

Belray isn't the closest to Stihl hp ultra...it's Motul 710. VP uses it in their premix.
I also agree with Randy using 32:1. Protection is more important than a possible slight speed advantage. Most of the pics I've seen the H1R was dirty just like Bwalker said.

 

[Ron660]

film strength is not only a factor of viscosity. There are other contributions to film strength and even based on viscosity, it is not a 1:1 ratio of film strength to viscosity.

It's one of the most important. I work with a guy that blended Stihl and Husqvarna oil for years.

 

[Moparmyway]

Im still not understanding why the thicker higher viscosity wont protect the bottom end as well as an oil rated at half the viscosity. Forget the topend and carbon. What about the bottomend

I think because the bottom end is well taken care of @ 32:1, so it becomes a "which is cleaner running" question

 

[Ron660]

I've always said, after some point, better isn't really better. If your application can't benefit from it, it's no better. With that said, I fully believe that an ester synthetic will give better protection than R2, or similar, in a near lean seize situation. Then the question becomes, which synthetic ester gives the best protection with the fewest negative side affects.

Brad, I'd say Motul 710 or 800 off-road.

 

[blsnelling]

I don't understand the logic of trying to match the flashpoint of HP Ultra. They didn't design the oil to a certain FP. That was just the result. Who cares what Ultra does anyway? We're not trying to equal Ultra, we're trying to better it.

 

[Ron660]

If you never get to the point were you need that film strength what good is it doing you? Why not run 10w90 in your truck? And there are trade offs. High viscosity oils do not and can not burn as clean.

 

[blsnelling]

I think because the bottom end is well taken care of @ 32:1, so it becomes a "which is cleaner running" question

Exactly. That being the case, what gives better protection...a synthetic ester at 40:1 or something like R2 at 32:1? With that question, I'm making the assumption that the synthetic ester needs to be 40:1 to run clean and have acceptable performance. That may well not be the case.

 

[Ron660]

That's Motul 800 off-road at 32:1. That's after almost two liters of off-road.

 

[Ron660]

I think because the bottom end is well taken care of @ 32:1, so it becomes a "which is cleaner running" question

I agree 100%....no 200%.

 

[Moparmyway]

I've always said, after some point, better isn't really better. If your application can't benefit from it, it's no better. With that said, I fully believe that an ester synthetic will give better protection than R2, or similar, in a near lean seize situation. Then the question becomes, which synthetic ester gives the best protection with the fewest negative side affects.

Brad - do you mean K2 or R50 ?

Exactly. That being the case, what gives better protection...a synthetic ester at 40:1 or something like R2 at 32:1? With that question, I'm making the assumption that the synthetic ester needs to be 40:1 to run clean and have acceptable performance. That may well not be the case.

Brad - do you mean K2 or R50 ?

View attachment 419184

That's Motul 800 off-road at 32:1. That's after almost two quarts of off-road.

Motul 800 off-road

That's friggin beautiful !!!!!!

So far, 800 off-road, R50, and Lucas pictures @ 32:1 have shown little to no wear, and spotless top ends ................ I would love to see some long term used with K2 @ 32:1