CATDIESEL
ArboristSite Operative
So where does that leave you ???? not intending to make anyone here look like you, and you need to lighten up a little, have a coke and a smile:msp_biggrin:
Aftermarket Cylinder... good and bad... the Truth!
- Thread starter watsonr
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Mastermind
Work Saw Specialist
Scott works as a logger and in the evening as a mechanic. He's also a dealer. No need to bust his chops over him adding his experience here Rex. He's the real deal and knows his stuff.
This is the type of posts that turn these threads sideways.
Dammit......I'm starting to sound like Snelling.
spacemule
The Peanut Gallery
Scott works as a logger and in the evening as a mechanic. He's also a dealer. No need to bust his chops over him adding his experience here Rex. He's the real deal and knows his stuff.
This is the type of posts that turn these threads sideways.
Dammit......I'm starting to sound like Snelling.
I'm just asking questions based on what he posted. I'm not busting anyone's chops. If he favors oem, that's fine, and is perfectly understandable. No need to make stuff up.
Sssshhhh....the grownups are talking.
paccity
Addicted to ArboristSite
spacemule
The Peanut Gallery
Yeah, looks like you lot had a real party last night.
paccity
Addicted to ArboristSite
probably a headache from following this thread.:msp_biggrin:
Yup...same arguments, different day.
watsonr
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Here is a report by an AS member that bought a lesser kit because it was the only one available for his saw. I would consider this a "B or C" quality kit. This was the only one out there and the supplier may have been told it was the "A" quality because of that reason alone! He spent a few hours fixing it, granted he was a little more involved in taking the correct steps than some may have, but his install was executed perfect. Pressure test, sealed up good, took some measurements and installed with questions. He was teaching both of us what a good quality kit should be!
There was no option to send another kit. Would have liked to have seen the look on his face after it started and then after several tanks of fuel... fine professional job of installing this kit! AND about what I'd expect from a great deal us guys who have this same addiction. I fed this back to the maker of said kit, he told me there all the same quality. I made him pull a bunch of cylinders off the shelf and check them, same story... they look the same and then he told me ... Nobody ever came back with a report like this, I'm not sure what to do. I told him to call the manufacturer and tell him to start checking his quality, tighten up the tolerances and verify that the kits are being assembled correctly..... and then that I'm going to drop his line if no improvement is made. I'm not the warehouse for these and they don't come to me first for inspection.. unfortunately.
MCW said test, test, measure, check and check again... couldn't agree more and on every kit... including OEM. One thing goes bad it's a complete wash. This supplier insists on buying grade "B" quality because there cheaper and he can afford to replace them cheaply. You install it and then complain, he says what went wrong, you tell him and he sends another..... and then tells you "I've sent two already, it must be you" and doesn't correspond anymore... just like the story Modified Mark has! One less guy buying doesn't hurt him, a bunch of guys not buying gets his attention maybe. He's selling turds and is buying them super cheap, selling at 500% mark up and never even flinches to replace several... your eventually going to get one that works or give up!
I'm not here to trash another seller, supplier or anything like that. I'm hereto tell you there's some shady stuff out there and people who are on the lookout for themselves only. Products become better when consumers demand it. Products become cheaper when competition for pricing occurs. I get xx% discount for volume buys, most require I buy $5000 in initial inventory of EACH size. I can not compete against big box stores, there per unit cost is lower than mine....
I can give you customer service, add the parts I think you need to do a quality re-build, fast shipping at reduced rates and my word that I'll replace it if/and when it fails.
Here's the report, enjoy... Oh. Rikk, You did a fine job, thank you for the feedback. It was received and hopefully understood. Not sure why its a little hard starting, maybe a carb kit, fuel line/filter, impulse line? Give me a jingle next time you need a part, I'll cut you a break for you effort!
1. Pulse line port. After the saw was assembled, I sealed it up to vacuum and pressure test it. It wouldn't even hold vacuum for more than a few seconds. I then pressurized the engine and I could hear it leaking where the fitting was pressed into the head. I tried seating it with a punch and it still leaked. Not a small leak either. So I took the saw apart and drove the fitting out, roughed it up a little on my lathe so it would hold sealant without spitting it out, coated it with sealer and pressed it back in. No leaks after letting it sit over night.
2. Muffler stud slots. They were wide enough for the stud to fit through, but the opening behind the slot, where the head fits, was way too small for the heads to fit into. I noticed this after the saw was together and couldn't take the cylinder off to work on the openings. I'd have just put it on my mill and opened them up a little. So, my only fix was to grind down the heads of the studs. I had to take the thickness down by about half and had to take about a 1/16" off 3 sides of the square head so it would fit without binding. I was afraid that if they didn't fit right, they would cause the muffler to not seal tight and could cause the saw to burn up.
3. Cylinder base. The sealing surface on the base of the cylinder was not flat. I set it up on a surface plate to measure it and it was anywhere from .005-.015 from flat depending on where you measured it. It wasn't crooked, but it was machined with wide, rough grooves in it. I realize that sealant will take care of a lot, but that was a bit much in my opinion. I was able to use a granite surface plate with different grits of sandpaper to get it flat to within .005 or so. I just felt that it was too risky without a gasket to take up the extra clearance.
On a good note, I ran the saw (at 40:1 with premium) through about 5-6 tanks of fuel the first day and after about 10 minutes of light cutting, the saw seemed to wake up a little. I think the rings were beginning to seat. When I got back home after the weekend, I checked the compression and ended up with 151 pounds. The only problem I had was that the saw became hard to start when it was hot after the first or second tank of fuel. I'm not sure if it was because the carb was adjusted without the rings seating or the plug was getting finicky from a higher mix ratio and being tuned a bit rich for break in.
Any thoughts on the starting issue?
There was no option to send another kit. Would have liked to have seen the look on his face after it started and then after several tanks of fuel... fine professional job of installing this kit! AND about what I'd expect from a great deal us guys who have this same addiction. I fed this back to the maker of said kit, he told me there all the same quality. I made him pull a bunch of cylinders off the shelf and check them, same story... they look the same and then he told me ... Nobody ever came back with a report like this, I'm not sure what to do. I told him to call the manufacturer and tell him to start checking his quality, tighten up the tolerances and verify that the kits are being assembled correctly..... and then that I'm going to drop his line if no improvement is made. I'm not the warehouse for these and they don't come to me first for inspection.. unfortunately.
MCW said test, test, measure, check and check again... couldn't agree more and on every kit... including OEM. One thing goes bad it's a complete wash. This supplier insists on buying grade "B" quality because there cheaper and he can afford to replace them cheaply. You install it and then complain, he says what went wrong, you tell him and he sends another..... and then tells you "I've sent two already, it must be you" and doesn't correspond anymore... just like the story Modified Mark has! One less guy buying doesn't hurt him, a bunch of guys not buying gets his attention maybe. He's selling turds and is buying them super cheap, selling at 500% mark up and never even flinches to replace several... your eventually going to get one that works or give up!
I'm not here to trash another seller, supplier or anything like that. I'm hereto tell you there's some shady stuff out there and people who are on the lookout for themselves only. Products become better when consumers demand it. Products become cheaper when competition for pricing occurs. I get xx% discount for volume buys, most require I buy $5000 in initial inventory of EACH size. I can not compete against big box stores, there per unit cost is lower than mine....
I can give you customer service, add the parts I think you need to do a quality re-build, fast shipping at reduced rates and my word that I'll replace it if/and when it fails.
Here's the report, enjoy... Oh. Rikk, You did a fine job, thank you for the feedback. It was received and hopefully understood. Not sure why its a little hard starting, maybe a carb kit, fuel line/filter, impulse line? Give me a jingle next time you need a part, I'll cut you a break for you effort!
1. Pulse line port. After the saw was assembled, I sealed it up to vacuum and pressure test it. It wouldn't even hold vacuum for more than a few seconds. I then pressurized the engine and I could hear it leaking where the fitting was pressed into the head. I tried seating it with a punch and it still leaked. Not a small leak either. So I took the saw apart and drove the fitting out, roughed it up a little on my lathe so it would hold sealant without spitting it out, coated it with sealer and pressed it back in. No leaks after letting it sit over night.
2. Muffler stud slots. They were wide enough for the stud to fit through, but the opening behind the slot, where the head fits, was way too small for the heads to fit into. I noticed this after the saw was together and couldn't take the cylinder off to work on the openings. I'd have just put it on my mill and opened them up a little. So, my only fix was to grind down the heads of the studs. I had to take the thickness down by about half and had to take about a 1/16" off 3 sides of the square head so it would fit without binding. I was afraid that if they didn't fit right, they would cause the muffler to not seal tight and could cause the saw to burn up.
3. Cylinder base. The sealing surface on the base of the cylinder was not flat. I set it up on a surface plate to measure it and it was anywhere from .005-.015 from flat depending on where you measured it. It wasn't crooked, but it was machined with wide, rough grooves in it. I realize that sealant will take care of a lot, but that was a bit much in my opinion. I was able to use a granite surface plate with different grits of sandpaper to get it flat to within .005 or so. I just felt that it was too risky without a gasket to take up the extra clearance.
On a good note, I ran the saw (at 40:1 with premium) through about 5-6 tanks of fuel the first day and after about 10 minutes of light cutting, the saw seemed to wake up a little. I think the rings were beginning to seat. When I got back home after the weekend, I checked the compression and ended up with 151 pounds. The only problem I had was that the saw became hard to start when it was hot after the first or second tank of fuel. I'm not sure if it was because the carb was adjusted without the rings seating or the plug was getting finicky from a higher mix ratio and being tuned a bit rich for break in.
Any thoughts on the starting issue?
RK-REX
ArboristSite Lurker
Glad to help out Randy. My background is in machining, so I'm a little more anal about things than some folks, but it never hurts to pay too much attention to detail I guess.
Also, the squish was .039 once I got it assembled.
-Rikk
Also, the squish was .039 once I got it assembled.
-Rikk
watsonr
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I knew I'd forget something, Thanks! Not the best squish, can't complain about 151psi.
A.E. Metal Werx
Addicted to ArboristSite
I would like to jump in own this topic a little, I personally have been running a meteor kit in my 372 for the past two months "ish" I will be the first one to admit I am a very hard guy to please but also am by no means afraid to try new things. When I heard randy was backing these AM kits I knew they had to be the real deal. I picked one up, looked the cylinder over top to bottom and was was very impressed with the quality. Casing looked nice and solid with from what I can see and no porosity visible. Plating, looks like a carbide burr killer to me! That stuff looks solid. I've rebuilt and moded a fair share of mx bike engines and wish the plating in them would have been up to the same par as these. Anyway, with p/c kit bolted to the saw you could never tell with out really looking that it wasn't stock. By no means could a guy tell by running the saw. I cut many of cookies going back and forth from the 372 to a 2171. The 372 was was ported while the 2171 was not but for a stock saw a person would think its ported. The 372 was a little to hot for a long bar but was still fasted but add the large felling dogs and the porting it was a little work to keep it in its power band. Both saws start the same, sound the same. Like I said if you didn't really look you would never know it was an AM cylinder. I have no less then 5 tanks of fuel through the saw with the AM kit and I haven't concerns what so ever about running another 100+. No scoring, plating looks like new. Would more could a guy ask for?
roostersgt
Addicted to ArboristSite
The short answer to your question is "YES". Now, I've never pretended to know everything, but I do know an OEM cylinder has works to my satisfaction every single time. Not so with the AM cylinders I've used. Working on a 039 project now and I know the AM cylinder I'll be using will be less power than the rebuilt OEM saws I have laying on the bench next to it. So, I do in fact know what combinations work for me on the saws I mentioned. I've done a few dozen.
Didn't notice the thread was referring to "ported" AM cylinders. It was?? I did point out that I've not used any ported cylinders, as they seem to go for around $250, according to the prices regularly seem in many saw builder / posters signatures. And I will add, and many here have proven the point time and time again, that a good used OEM cylinder with Meteor piston set up runs just fine and is quite near stock OEM in quality and performance. I've built up many "waiting" for OEM cylinders to become available on Ebay and have put the saws together for under $100. That said, I really don't see your point in throwing money at a AM cylinder for port work and then hoping the plating doesn't come off in a couple hundred hours. It would cost more and would be a gamble. Opinions are nice, but facts are facts and money doesn't come for "free" in my household.
CATDIESEL
ArboristSite Operative
if he has all that going on he is definately a busy man. i am wondering how he has time to port saws as well.Scott works as a logger and in the evening as a mechanic. He's also a dealer. No need to bust his chops over him adding his experience here Rex. He's the real deal and knows his stuff.
This is the type of posts that turn these threads sideways.
Dammit......I'm starting to sound like Snelling.
:liquor:
I've had good luck with some of the aftermarket brands, including all of those that Randy is selling. People also slam Bailey's big bore kits but I've had good luck with those although they take a bit of work. I've run big bore kits on the 440, 660, and I'm running one right now on a 395XP that's one of the smoothest single-cylinder saws I've ever run.
Scott just doesn't take any days off. He's an animal when it comes to work. You should see the pics of the piles of firewood he cuts. He's definitely got a few thousand hours behind some saws.
8433jeff
Aftermarket connoisseur
I have an OEM cylinder/piston kit for an 029 that will have to come out again because it ingests the sealant from the intake side. This has happened twice. The sealant has sat over night both times, second time over the weekend. Off the eBay, kit was never installed before. Have rebuilt 20 of this style, never had such a thing happen before.
OEM isn't saving me squat.
