Ceramic Bearings?????

[RiverRat2]

In your previous post you wrote

but he writes in his website

Something doesn't add up.

What if you could get a 1/2 hp on a chainsaw?

Then I would say that would be Kick Azzed

 

[Haywire Haywood]

You would have to look at the total HP those carts are putting out to get a percentage increase and then apply that to the saw application but since the engines and their internal frictions aren't the same, that wouldn't work either.

What I find interesting is that the loose ceramic balls on the site that Andy listed are going for $1.50-$2.00 each. There might be a quality difference between those and Dean's $5 balls tho. I know mine are pretty valuable to me, but they were from a very limited 1967 production run :jester:. They made just 2, decided they got them right and called it a day.

Ian

 

[bwalker]

If you find a 1/2-5/8 hp increase on a motor that makes over 35hp significant have at it.

 

[Lakeside53]

Here's another informative link on bearings (slanted towards their services..).

http://www.microblueracing.com/bearing_central/bearing_central.php


They talk about the ball fit complexities much clearer then I can.. it is an issue..

 

[klickitatsacket]

Hey guys I and others who are involved in this with my shop have spent literally 10's of hours researching these long before we ever decided to get involved. Then there was the testing of the ceramics before we ever started to sell them.

"Manufacturer claims 8-10 % in HP gains however our tests show that cut times run about 5-7% faster with the only changes being the bearings."

Remember that statement? Look I do not buy into manufacturers hype either and so we did our own tests and hence the statement. The gains are actually just parasitic losses recovered.

Lakside, you may want to spend a little more time in an in depth research of this product. Hybrid is the way that most unscrupulous manufacturers try to fool people into buying coated bearings. Usually they come from China and look like bargains, but are not meant for engine use.

Are they expensive? Yes. Are they the BEST? Yes. Are they SUPERIOR to anything your company sells? ABSOLUTELY!
Are they for everybody? No. They are for those who want the best. These are for those who buy a good piece of equipment and then bring it to me to have it converted into a high performance machine. The discriminating person who would buy a set of ceramic bearings is typically spending $600 - $1000 on modifications and these are only part of the package. The person who purchases our services; wants the best with no compromise.

 

[chowdozer]

If you find a 1/2-5/8 hp increase on a motor that makes over 35hp significant have at it.

You didn't read your friend's website, did you?

This is what he wrote.

Not a ton, but how important is that critical 1-2 kart length lead at the end of the straight?

As Dean says, they're not for everyone. There are some people out there with saws that have already chased every fraction of a horsepower they can. This is just another fraction for them.

 

[bwalker]

Something doesn't add up.

What if you could get a 1/2 hp on a chainsaw?

I most certainly did. I dont call a 1/2hp or less than 1% gain on a 35hp engine significant. Do you?

I might add that the bearings are RCE sells are around $100 per set. They are also probably twice the size of a saw bearing.
Another thing I find odd is that a 5-7% gain in cut speed is claimed. Certainly to garner such a gain it would take a more than 5-7% increase in horspower. Yet RCE is only claiming a less than 1% gain.
FWIW you can bet that RCE has tested these bearings in a scientific manner. The principle people involved with RCE have a F-1 background and they actually developed their own motorcycle from scratch, including the motor. The engine was a emissions compliant, DI two stroke to boot.

 

[klickitatsacket]

FWIWI most certainly did. I dont call a 1/2hp or less than 1% gain on a 35hp engine significant. Do you?
More like 1.4%
FWIWI might add that the bearings are RCE sells are around $100 per set. They are also probably twice the size of a saw bearing.Argue the inflated price of bearings with stihl FWIW I like the statement probably twice the size. So you have not handled those either and really have no clue, just all guess work on your part.

"FWIW" I like that. To me a BOOK JOCKY who has never built anything, who wants nothing to do with racing and who has never tried them to know if they work or not, well FWIW; about the same as the paper I used and flushed this morning.

 

[chowdozer]

"FWIW" I like that. To me a BOOK JOCKY who has never built anything, who wants nothing to do with racing and who has never tried them to know if they work or not, well FWIW; about the same as the paper I used and flushed this morning.

My thoughts exactly!

Mr Walker, if you only read about it, who are you going to believe?

I most certainly did. I dont call a 1/2hp or less than 1% gain on a 35hp engine significant. Do you?

I would say that if a builder is chasing horsepower to the nth degree, it gets exponentially expensive. Certainly when a builder gets to the point where he has decided to use ceramic bearings to gain a fraction of a hp, it was the most economical hp gain he could achieve. Less than 1% hp wins races. If you think that chasing a fraction of a hp is absurd, go take a look around F1 instead of talking about it.

FWIW you can bet that RCE has tested these bearings in a scientific manner.

Just a few posts ago, you wrote this:

They worked OK, but he never realized any significant power gains that could be documented repeatedly on a ultra accurate dyno.

Anyone that has tested these bearings in a scientific manner and never realized any significant power gains that could be documented repeatedly on a ultra accurate dyno would not be making any claims. If they are making claims then they are full of it.

So what is it? Are you full of chit or are they?

 

[PES+]

Per the shifter kart site price list

Price is per bearing (each)

Two required per engine


CS-Bpad$104.95

210 dollars a pair for the shifter kart engine applications.

Dean I have always heard the bearings you are custom building called hybrids.

I have had some made for various applications and have found as Dean has that there is quite a bit of inspection and reject work hence the price difference.

And the difference in an aircooled engine versus a water cooled is substantial particularly when modifications load the crank harder and raise the RPM. It is not simply the reduction of parasitic loss.

Remember that the trick is to keep the crankcase as cool as possible to get the maximum amount of charge into the case then compress and transfer.

The last benefit is the ceramics are far kinder to seals due to less heat produced as well as less axial movement.

RCE does the same thing Dean does but for a different application and the benefits are much greater in a aircooled engine than a water cooled.

A question for Dean from me would be did you match two saws and then swap out to ceramics or are the comparisons on the same saw on different days.

Using an actual cut is always hard for me to comprehend as there are so many variables involved.

The ceramics are a superior bearing hybrid or full but unfortunately as Dean discovered all of the reasonably priced ones from all suppliers that I tried were poor quality and some were unusable right out of the box.

Precision costs money and takes time

 

[Jacob J.]

I also have yet to see anything about a bearing that uses a steel ball with a ceramic coating and calls it "hybrid". I've looked at around 40 websites and I've called 6 of them and everyone of them defined a hybrid bearing as a bearing that uses steel inner and outer races, a retainer made of phenolic, teflon, or steel, and a 100% silicon nitride ball for the actual roller. Although I did locate two companies selling a hybrid bearing with the roller balls made of an inferior chemical compound than 100% silicon nitride. I did talk to these folks and they were informative: http://www.cbrbearing.com/ceramic_hybrid_ball_bearings.htm

 

[klickitatsacket]

Pest, The testing we did was to run a stock saw and then put in the ceramics and run it again. Condition were not scientifically controlled, but fairly close day to day. I did 2 tests here at my shop and I had another guy in the midwest who is helping me with this do 4 tests. We averaged things out and found that theere was a 5-7% increase in cut times. We are still noticing the same types af gains and have now installed 9 sets and sold several other sets to be installed by our customers.

I will add ; that there is a lot of crap out there when it comes to ceramic bearings. A lot of it comes out of China. We are using what I feel are the best we can buy. We use 100% SiliconNitride balls to rebuild OEM races. There are at least 5 different sizes per size and 7 different grades. We run slightly small balls (as per an engineers' recomendations) this is to accomodate for higher RPM. We do not use hybrid balls

 

[PES+]

I just asked a guy in Europe and he does say that there are balls that are coated and machined called either composite or hybrid so maybe that is the terminology mix and match. I don't know....there seems to be alot of interchangable terminology in items these days but there were always different names for alot of items Gudgeon pin comes to mind

I do not see how anyone can begrudge a person his time and expense to hand build an item.

I am still freaked out this afternoon after finding my stored away 166 is in fact a 153 no big deal but someone scoffed the entire ignition out of it in one of it's resting places:bang:

 

[bwalker]

A genius in his own mind.......
Dean, just a thought. Maybe if you read a few books you wouldnt continue to chase obscure ideas.
BTW might want to pick up a math book while your at it as a .5 gain on a 35hp does not amount to 1.4%. To make it simple lets take ten percent of 35=3.5, take half of that, which is 5%= 1.75, take half of that, which is 2.5%=.75. Now where are you getting 1.4% from

Chowdozer, Do you consider a less than 1% gain significant? RCE even mentions that the gains are not huge and in no way does my statement in regards to no significant gains being made not jive with whats on RCE's site. You might think a 3'' crank is significant, but not me. Some goes for a sub 1% gain in HP.

 

[PES+]

Me.....him.....or you??

 

[LarryTheCableGuy]

If all else fails resort to name calling. An excellent way to muck up a good discussion.

.

 

[klickitatsacket]

1.4% gain. check again and you will see I am talking gains. BTW don't let this stop you from answering all your other BS

 

[bwalker]

Not you, Pest.

 

[spacemule]

A genius in his own mind.......
Dean, just a thought. Maybe if you read a few books you wouldnt continue to chase obscure ideas.
BTW might want to pick up a math book while your at it as a .5 gain on a 35hp does not amount to 1.4%. To make it simple lets take ten percent of 35=3.5, take half of that, which is 5%= 1.75, take half of that, which is 2.5%=.75. Now where are you getting 1.4% from

1.4% is correct Ben, or at least is a good approximation. Actually, half of 1.75 is .875, but let's follow with what you said anyway. Following your lead, take half of 2.5% = .357 = 1.25%. This falls in line with 1.4%. To make it even easier, .5 divided by 35 = .01412857 and the decimal repeats. Now, to convert from decimal to percentages, multiply by 100. Doing this gives us 1.41287 percent, again with a repeating decimal.

 

[bwalker]

1.4% gain. check again and you will see I am talking gains. BTW don't let this stop you from answering all your other BS
__________________

Actually your correct. A 1% gain would equal 35.49hp.