Ceramic Bearings?????

[spacemule]

Actually your correct. A 1% gain would equal 35.49hp.

A 1% gain? 35 x .01 will equal 1%. so, 35 x .01 = .35. Adding this to the original hp would give us 35.35 hp. .35 is significantly less than the .5 we were originally talking about. The .49 you are talking about would be a .49/35x100 =1.4% evenly.

 

[bwalker]

Thanks for the math Mule.
Now can you apply the same % gain in HP to a mod saw of say 10hp?
I am having a hard time figuring out how a 1.4% gain can equate to a 5-7% increase in cut speed, but I am not a math guy.

 

[spacemule]

Thanks for the math Mule.
Now can you apply the same % gain in HP to a mod saw of say 10hp?
I am having a hard time figuring out how a 1.4% gain can equate to a 5-7% increase in cut speed, but I am not a math guy.

Ha ha. Ok, a 1.4% gain on a 10 hp motor would be (10x1.4)/100=.14hp. So, a 1.4% gain would yield 10.14hp. Cut speeds? Who knows.

 

[bwalker]

Cut speeds? Who knows.

Its a given that it takes more than a 5-7% increase in HP to increase the cut speed by a like amount.

 

[chowdozer]

Thanks for the math Mule.
Now can you apply the same % gain in HP to a mod saw of say 10hp?
I am having a hard time figuring out how a 1.4% gain can equate to a 5-7% increase in cut speed, but I am not a math guy.

Ah, yes... a genius in his own mind.

That can't do math. Instead of telling Dean to pick up a math book, you would be wise to.

 

[bwalker]

Ah, yes... a genius in his own mind.

That can't do math. Instead of telling Dean to pick up a math book, you would be wise to.

Thats all you got?
I admitted my miscalculation btw?
BTW whats Dean having for dinner? Your nose is so far up........that you should know.

 

[chowdozer]

Its a given that it takes more than a 5-7% increase in HP to increase the cut speed by a like amount.

Are you making the assumption that power gains would be proportional to engine output, and if so why?

As Pest pointed out, engine gains on a aircooled engine may be different than a watercooled engine.

Are you also making the assumption the two engine bearing sizes are proportional to power output, and if so why?

If you're going to disprove, then disprove, don't just yak about what you think.

You have also written in a previous post

FWIW you can bet that RCE has tested these bearings in a scientific manner.

and

They worked OK, but he never realized any significant power gains that could be documented repeatedly on a ultra accurate dyno.

What you have written disagree's with RCE's website. Are you their spokesman? If not, I will once again say that if they tested these bearings in a scientific manner and did not have repeatable results on an ultra accurate dyno, then they would not claim those results.

 

[chowdozer]

Chowdozer, Do you consider a less than 1% gain significant? RCE even mentions that the gains are not huge and in no way does my statement in regards to no significant gains being made not jive with whats on RCE's site. You might think a 3'' crank is significant, but not me. Some goes for a sub 1% gain in HP.

A 1% gain can be very significant. It can win a race. FWIW, you have established that a chainsaw experiences a 1% power gain by running ceramic bearings. You have established this by guessing.

Why is your guessing more reputable than someone installing and using these bearings?

 

[bwalker]

A 1% gain can be very significant. It can win a race. FWIW, you have established that a chainsaw experiences a 1% power gain by running ceramic bearings. You have established this by guessing.

More like playing devils advocate than guessing. The Kart motor by virtue of its larger bearings would stand to gain more by reducing friction as the bearings are physically bigger and therefore have more friction to start with vs a saw bearing. This makes Deans claims all the more dubious.


All things aside. Dean made the claim that the bearings alone resulting in a 5-7% increase in cut speed.
Anyone thats been involved in motorsport racing at all knows it takes more than a 5-7% increase in HP to yield a 5-7% in speed.
There is no way in hell a cermic bearing is going to net more than a 5-7% increase in HP that would be needed to to increase cut speed by a like amount.
Thats my point. Clear enough?

 

[klickitatsacket]

More like playing devils advocate than guessing. The Kart motor by virtue of its larger bearings would stand to gain more by reducing friction as the bearings are physically bigger and therefore have more friction to start with vs a saw bearing. This makes Deans claims all the more dubious.


All things aside. Dean made the claim that the bearings alone resulting in a 5-7% increase in cut speed.
Anyone thats been involved in motorsport racing at all knows it takes more than a 5-7% increase in HP to yield a 5-7% in speed.
There is no way in hell a cermic bearing is going to net more than a 5-7% increase in HP that would be needed to to increase cut speed by a like amount.
Thats my point. Clear enough?

Walker you are so full of BS it is unreal. IF torque levels are at a point that they are not being used to their potential and RPM can be picked up with out leaning out the saw... then it is easy to pick those kinds of gains. You show your hand all too well. You are more interest in trying do discredit my company than trying to look at anything objectively. Ben I know I have told you this before... try building something and not just reading about it or trying to pull it out of your ars.

 

[bwalker]

Now we have magic torque levels...
You do a fine job of discrediting yourself.

 

[Stihl Crazy]

Been an interesting read, I know nothing of bearings but I know cutting times. If times were not done back to back they are meaningless. I can get a 1500 rpm difference on the same saw in an hour. How long did it take to change bearings? I would say that air conditions are too great a variable from day to day to say a gain or loss was made.

 

[Big Woody]

I say anyone dumb enough to spend 200 dollars on ceramic bearings deserves to be separated from their money. Should lose the right to vote also.

Reminds me of that old famous saying: "A fool and his 200 dollars are soon parted"

We run slightly small balls (as per an engineers' recomendations) this is to accomodate for higher RPM

Who is the engineer and what type of lubrication engineering expert knowledge does he have? Whats his name and where does he work?

These are Built on OEM races and we use the finest Silicon Nitride ball available.

The Advantages according to the manufacturer are:
30% less dense than steal balls
need 1/100 the lubrication
Last 10 times longer

Why use smaller balls if they are less dense and need less lubrication and last 10 times longer? Why can't the original size handle the load and the rpm?
Won't smaller balls give slight play? If the load is unchanged and you decrease the radius of the ball you will increase the contact stress between the ball and the race. By the way, what regime of hydrodynamic lubrication are these bearing in anyways. I'm sure your engineer would have to know that for his recommendations.

Maybe it really has something to do with putting the balls back into the original OEM races?

 

[RiverRat2]

I say anyone dumb enough to spend 200 dollars on ceramic bearings deserves to be separated from their money. Should lose the right to vote also.

Reminds me of that old famous saying: "A fool and his 200 dollars are soon parted"



Who is the engineer and what type of lubrication engineering expert knowledge does he have? Whats his name and where does he work?




Why use smaller balls if they are less dense and need less lubrication and last 10 times longer? Why can't the original size handle the load and the rpm?
Won't smaller balls give slight play? If the load is unchanged and you decrease the radius of the ball you will increase the contact stress between the ball and the race. By the way, what regime of hydrodynamic lubrication are these bearing in anyways. I'm sure your engineer would have to know that for his recommendations.

Maybe it really has something to do with putting the balls back into the original OEM races? :

Really,,,,, another bearing expert opcorn: opcorn: opcorn:

 

[livewire]

I say anyone dumb enough to spend 200 dollars on ceramic bearings deserves to be separated from their money. Should lose the right to vote also.

Reminds me of that old famous saying: "A fool and his 200 dollars are soon parted"



Who is the engineer and what type of lubrication engineering expert knowledge does he have? Whats his name and where does he work?




Why use smaller balls if they are less dense and need less lubrication and last 10 times longer? Why can't the original size handle the load and the rpm?
Won't smaller balls give slight play? If the load is unchanged and you decrease the radius of the ball you will increase the contact stress between the ball and the race. By the way, what regime of hydrodynamic lubrication are these bearing in anyways. I'm sure your engineer would have to know that for his recommendations.

Maybe it really has something to do with putting the balls back into the original OEM races?

...must be an engineer! :hmm3grin2orange:

good post! I need to re-read this thread...Last time I checked in there was aWHOLE bunch numbers flying around! I failed math!

 

[chowdozer]

More like playing devils advocate than guessing. The Kart motor by virtue of its larger bearings would stand to gain more by reducing friction as the bearings are physically bigger and therefore have more friction to start with vs a saw bearing. This makes Deans claims all the more dubious.

You play devil's advocate without any numbers, is that it? As I wrote before, you're making guesses trying to discredit someone who is installing and using these bearings. In my book, that means you're full of ....

What cart engine and bearings did your buddy at RCE use? What saw and bearings did Dean use? You don't know. Maybe you should get facts first. You have completely ignored the comment about air cooled engines versus water cooled. If you're going to play devil's advocate, great, but you seem to overlook anything that doesn't support your argument and I keep bringing it up but you keep ignoring it.

All things aside. Dean made the claim that the bearings alone resulting in a 5-7% increase in cut speed.

And that really frosts your gonads, doesn't it? You don't want to believe it. It wouldn't matter if Dean had an independent test in his hand, you would still try to discredit it. It's no secret that you disagree with Dean on everything he posts regarding building saws. Why is that? He builds alot of saws, sounds like his business is doing very well, lotta happy customers on this site. Whatta you got? Nuthin' but words. Alotta guesses. Nothing factual. Have you ever built a saw? Never mind, we already know the answer.

Anyone thats been involved in motorsport racing at all knows it takes more than a 5-7% increase in HP to yield a 5-7% in speed.

Anyone involved in motorsports knows that aerodynamic drag increases as the square of speed. Are you implying that a saw experiences this same speed squared drag???

There is no way in hell a cermic bearing is going to net more than a 5-7% increase in HP that would be needed to to increase cut speed by a like amount.

You seem to have misplaced your proof? I can't find it.

Suggested reading for you. Look at who's using ceramics and why.

Hmmm... lower maintainence on the shuttle.
http://ipp.nasa.gov/innovation/Innovation15/CeramicBalls.html

Hmmm... NASCAR, Formula 1, USAC, NHRA,
http://www.aargear.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=366


This is interesting. Look at the words under the Formula 1 car. Hmmm.... looks like BMW Oracle reduced the friction on their guide pulleys of their sailboat by 90%!!! You gonna argue with them?
http://www.designworldonline.com/ArticleDetails.aspx?id=291

Hmmm... look, they're using them on bicycles! Inteeresting to read what the author writes. $100K worth of ceramic bearings on an F1 car.
http://thisjustin.bicycling.com/2006/07/_fsa_cracks_the.html

Wow, Tyler Hamilton had a 19 second advantage over second place at the Olympic time trials. Suppose those bearings had something to do with it?
http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/2005/shows/interbike05/?id=results/interbike0513

Very informative article at Modern Machine Shop. 70% friction reduction and they get better as they bed in.
http://www.mmsonline.com/articles/0901td.html

Ceramics are here buddy. Now. People are using them for higher operating speeds, lower friction, increased life, higher and lower enviromental temperatures. They're not going away. Get used to it. If Dean says he sees a 5-7% reduction in cut times, you got a long ways to go to disprove him. Flapping your gums ain't going to cut it. Cheers!

 

[bwalker]

nd that really frosts your gonads, doesn't it? You don't want to believe it. It wouldn't matter if Dean had an independent test in his hand, you would still try to discredit it. It's no secret that you disagree with Dean on everything he posts regarding building saws.

I do think Deans claims are BS and he doesnt have a independant test. Think that sums it up.
I dont disagree with everything that he has to say.
BTW the differance between a liquid cooled kart and an race saw temp wise is very differant. The Kart runs much hotter....
BTW Woody seems to think you guys are full of it and he is a engineer.

 

[chowdozer]

I do think Deans claims are BS and he doesnt have a independant test. Think that sums it up.
I dont disagree with everything that he has to say.
BTW the differance between a liquid cooled kart and an race saw temp wise is very differant. The Kart runs much hotter....
BTW Woody seems to think you guys are full of it and he is a engineer.

You can think anything you want. There's a saying about opinions, forgot what it is...
Read again. I said IF Dean had an independent test... But then there's no reason he should. If he's got happy customers, that's what's important.

The Kart runs much hotter....

Show me. Give me some numbers. I already have numbers for a chainsaw. Show me some numbers for a cart. Give me some full load numbers.

Yes, Woody is an engineer. That's great. Funny thing is, if Woody believes in what he writes he's got a BIG argument with the likes of NASA, Formula 1, NASCAR, NHRA, CART, BMW and IBAG North America on the short list 'cuz those people are USING ceramic bearings with good results. If you want a bigger list, it shouldn't be too hard to look around on the web and find more.

Cheers

 

[bwalker]

Nasa guys drink Tang...wonder how it would run in a saw?

Now as to a saw vs. kart. With a race saw Bubba steps up to a log and lets her rip for a few cuts. Kart races on the other hand involve many minutes of sustained full throttle running with engines that are on the thermal edge. Kart engines actually become so heat soaked that they lose HP as the race goes in due to decreased charge density.

I said IF Dean had an independent test

Which he doesnt........

 

[klickitatsacket]

I say anyone dumb enough to spend 200 dollars on ceramic bearings deserves to be separated from their money. Should lose the right to vote also.

Reminds me of that old famous saying: "A fool and his 200 dollars are soon parted"



Who is the engineer and what type of lubrication engineering expert knowledge does he have? Whats his name and where does he work?




Why use smaller balls if they are less dense and need less lubrication and last 10 times longer? Why can't the original size handle the load and the rpm?
Won't smaller balls give slight play? If the load is unchanged and you decrease the radius of the ball you will increase the contact stress between the ball and the race. By the way, what regime of hydrodynamic lubrication are these bearing in anyways. I'm sure your engineer would have to know that for his recommendations.

Maybe it really has something to do with putting the balls back into the original OEM races?

Well, it seems like you are an engineer or at least you pretend to be. So for all who are reading this why don't you tell everybody in here the following

In a 6.35mm ball:
How many sizes are there?
How many ratings are there?
How many grades are there?
What is the difference in each sub-size?
How are those grades determined?
What heat ranges will each grade handle?
What finnish do you need on the races for these to benificial?

This is only about 1/3 of the questions had to get answers to. I spent several hours talking with engineers from 2 different bearing manufacturers. You being an engineer or at least pretending to be one should ahve no trouble ratteling off those answers. Please inform us uneducated types what is the proper size and grade to run in our application.

60cc-130cc motor
Piston port
running 40:1 fuel mix (dino oil 91-110 octane)
RPM 13,000-22,000
Air cooled (it's a chainsaw)
I already have the answers.