Ceramic Bearings?????

[chowdozer]

Nasa guys drink Tang...wonder how it would run in a saw?

Now as to a saw vs. kart. With a race saw Bubba steps up to a log and lets her rip for a few cuts. Kart races on the other hand involve many minutes of sustained full throttle running with engines that are on the thermal edge. Kart engines actually become so heat soaked that they lose HP as the race goes in due to decreased charge density.


Which he doesnt........

I work with and for NASA engineers. You don't know anything about them.

Give me some numbers Ben Walker. A timestamped Excel file would be great.

 

[bwalker]

Chowdozer, You have data?

 

[Tree Sling'r]

Same old crap as always.
You guys can take your numbers and shove them up your...Well you know.
I don't know math like many of you do, and obviously thats all you have.
A bunch of backyard wood cutters telling people what does and does not work - to those who do this day in and day out.
It is funny how those who bash Dean and his ideas have never proven anything. I have never seen your products in action - I have never seen where people rant and rave about what you have done for them.
All I have ever seen is how a handful of you bring someone down becuase you are not capable of doing it yourself. Jealousy...?
Yeah, I'm a Dean mark - and yeah I have ceramic bearings and yeah my saws will blow the doors off yours.
Keep on talking - keep on reading - and keep on blowin' smoke up your own Arsh, but until you proove your point with YOUR product keep you mouth shut.
Wouldn't mind draggin' half you Sally's to work with me - just to show all day long what you don't know - or have.

 

[RiverRat2]

Hey walker give it a rest already!!!!

I do think Deans claims are BS and he doesnt have a independant test. Think that sums it up.
I dont disagree with everything that he has to say.
BTW the differance between a liquid cooled kart and an race saw temp wise is very differant. The Kart runs much hotter....
BTW Woody seems to think you guys are full of it and he is a engineer.

Like tha slinger said,,,,,Paraphrased,,,,,What have you brought to tha table?????

Where's your results????? FTM wheres your saw????? quit bringing up crap about Kart motors, I have yet to see a kart motor sponsor on this site,,,,, Deans work in the sawyers world over time keeps on proving itself,,, AAMOF
I got one of his mildly modded saws an 066 mag W36"b/c that has been in Professional Tree removal/Stump Grinding service going on a year,,,,,, 10 months,,, we cut stumps all over the Golden Trangle of Texas and fall big problem trees at business's & in peoples yards and when we have a bad one,, guess what saw we get???? And when you cold start it people stop what they are doing and usually come watch!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm not sayin you arent entitled to your opinion,,,glad ya got one we are all different,,,, Ive seen plenty of Deans work in action,,,, in fact i"m building 3 more saws right now,,,,,,copying off of his work,,, and one from BIG DAVE'S Im not The only guy on AS that's running his stuff,,,,,,

Oh and BTW I am a field service engineer @ my day job,,,and that means I spend the better part of my day fixing and making work IN THE FIELD what some design or fresh out of somebody like Big WOODY'S classroom engineer drew up and looked or sounded great on his DES (definitive engineering scope) or on paper (prints)???????????????????:bang: :bang:

BTW My Baby Brothers & dad have the land clearing, tree removal, stump grinding service,,,, and messin with trees or lumber goes back over 4 generations and if ya pull apart one of OUR OLDER modern pre EPA saws their ports look real similar to what people like dean and BDN are doin to tha new ones to put food in their bellies and feed their families,,,,,,

I just don't see what you get out of pickin on dean cause he might mispell a word,,,,,a bunch of what he does and has learnd is from workin on em, runnin tha fire out of em,,, yeah he breaks em too,,,,,seems like a while back there was a thread showin one that had a freak failure,,,,, that FYI he did right by,,, standing behind his work!!!!

Most of whati've seen from you is,,,, trying to get a thrill out bustin somebody's chops,,,,,,,,,

Get a grip

 

[Chopwood]

File a faster chain to make up for the 1/10th HP that the ceramic bearings make.

 

[Gologit]

Same old crap as always.
You guys can take your numbers and shove them up your...Well you know.
I don't know math like many of you do, and obviously thats all you have.
A bunch of backyard wood cutters telling people what does and does not work - to those who do this day in and day out.
It is funny how those who bash Dean and his ideas have never proven anything. I have never seen your products in action - I have never seen where people rant and rave about what you have done for them.
All I have ever seen is how a handful of you bring someone down becuase you are not capable of doing it yourself. Jealousy...?
Yeah, I'm a Dean mark - and yeah I have ceramic bearings and yeah my saws will blow the doors off yours.
Keep on talking - keep on reading - and keep on blowin' smoke up your own Arsh, but until you proove your point with YOUR product keep you mouth shut.
Wouldn't mind draggin' half you Sally's to work with me - just to show all day long what you don't know - or have.

:hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange: Hell, Slingr'...don't sweet talk em' like that. Tell 'em straight out...quit beating around the bush and trying not to injure their delicate little self image. Bob

 

[ShoerFast]

Starting from the beginning , this thread would be a good one if it were not for the flack.

If you want some prof on this, sorry, I have no hard documents on what the gains are, but anyone with a firm understanding of the psychics behind an engine know that the smaller an engine is, and the fewer cylinders there are, the harder it is for that engine to overcome it's own friction and to make its own compression. They simply need to engineer a larger percentage of the available power back into overcoming it's own friction.

If a 35 HP engine will make an extra 1% gain with ceramics, no facts here, but a 15HP class engine may make an extra 3% , it is very easy for me to believe Dean and others claims that a 7HP class engine could benefit an easy 7% faster cutting speed, and I also believe that a 3HP class engine may gain a larger percentage. Back to the non-supported Shoer's rule, the smaller the engine, the harder it is for that engine to overcome it's own friction, less friction, equals more power. There is not a true NRHA racer that has not tried or saw what a vacuum pump would do (reduces air friction loss on rotating crank, rods and the bottoms of pistons and allows lower tension piston rings) "The Sportsman pump was worth a 30hp gain on a 555ci BBC " http://www.dragstuff.com/techarticles/vacuum-pumps.html

Chainsaws would just benefit better then a cart engines for a very simple reason, but I wont tell Ben, but a hint for the rest, would a chainsaw also benefit from a ceramic nose-sprocket bearing?

How about ceramic bar-rails and guides, the saying is not a fool and his money (another shoer rule, you don't call people with money fools) the saying is from an old Mad Max movie, Speed is all about money! , How fast do you want to go?

 

[Tzed250]

My dad can beat up your dad...

 

[klickitatsacket]

A fool and his money soon part......

criticize me all you want; most see for the crap that it is. This however has crossed the line.

 

[chowdozer]

Chowdozer, You have data?

Absolutely.

 

[Locoweed]

Hey Dean

Things are a lot more enjoyable when you add irritants to the ignore list.

 

[chowdozer]

Hey Dean

Things are a lot more enjoyable when you add irritants to the ignore list.

I'll rep you for that. Completely forgot about the ignore list since Sappy left.

 

[24d]

.02

look'n back what money that I didnt spend on hi performance,booze and girls-I just threw away -so if I get me some trick lil bearings it would really be like save'n money -

 

[Jason280]

After reading this thread, I think its obvious a few are missing the big picture on the supposed HP gains. Like its mentioned above, it isn't so much an actual increase in horsepower per se as it is a more efficient use of the actual HP created by the motor. Kind of like the claim that a car develops 230hp at the engine, but a dyno on the rear wheels only shows 210hp. Now, developing a method of more efficiently transferring that power to the wheels may result in a HP increase. Of course, that does not mean the actual engine power has increased, just the amount that is meeting the road. Now, apply that to chainsaws and you may see a similarity. The bearings may not increase the gross HP of the engine, but may increase the amount of power available at the chain due to a more efficient transfer. And, as all of us know, more available power at the chain will result in faster cutting times. Which brings us to the next big debate...

I have little doubt that Dean has seen a 5-7% increase in cutting speeds with these bearings. I realize I am relatively new to this site, but I do know how much stock people place on internet websites. Because of that, I highly doubt he would come here and make outlandish claims in front of hundreds of people very knowledgeable on the topic.

Now, is it possible the 5-7% claims aren't truly scientific? Absolutely. There are quite a few variables that must be considered and must be controlled. These include saw operating temperatures, chain tightness, chain sharpness, wood density, etc... (which don't even take in to account variations inside the wood and the testors themselves).

That being said, this is merely my observation on the matter. I am in no position to challenge anyone's claims or stats. I own three Husqvarna chainsaws (two 65's and a 136), and probably cut less than 5-10 cords of wood a year. To me, these bearings would be a waste of money as I would see no real gain from them. However, others may find legitimate benefits from these products and I have no trouble with that.

 

[Tree Sling'r]

File a faster chain to make up for the 1/10th HP that the ceramic bearings make.

Yeah, I'm sure you would know.

Don't file - I grind - Pro Sharp.

 

[bwalker]

Absolutely.

Lets see it. And while your at it do you have any data showing a reduction in friction for ceramic bearings ran in a two cycle?

 

[bwalker]

Now, is it possible the 5-7% claims aren't truly scientific? Absolutely. There are quite a few variables that must be considered and must be controlled. These include saw operating temperatures, chain tightness, chain sharpness, wood density, etc... (which don't even take in to account variations inside the wood and the testors themselves).

Bingo!

 

[Lakeside53]

I don't doubt ceramic bearing balls reduce friction. I'd still like someone to nicely (I'm not here to grind any axes..) explain that if the only variable is the bearing type, and the added power is being gained from the LACK of friction, then surely that power is currently being absorbed by the NON-Ceramic bearings... Example, using the low end of Dean's HP number (not to be argumentative...) 5% gain on of a 6hp saw = 0.3hp or about 228 watts - that's 114 watts per bearing. Anyone ever tried to hold a 100 watt soldering iron or noticed just how much heating it can do on a peice of metal metal...... What's wrong with my logic???


Also... back to bearing basics... Don't the balls actually run on a film of lubricant.. not surface contact?

 

[chowdozer]

Lets see it. And while your at it do you have any data showing a reduction in friction for ceramic bearings ran in a two cycle?

Hahaha! Good one!

 

[bwalker]

Hahaha! Good one!

Thats what I figured.