CEU Ripoff

[jomoco]

You sneak out of your home/hole in the dark of the night to defend the honor of the address that is T. H. in hopes they might let you in their secret room......not likely.

I show you the literature you detest (ISA) and your response is "no, no, that is not it" (yes it is). Then while speaking French (w t f) you show some properly pollarded trees. What's this got to do with CEU's?

Now don't go pullin yur hair out TV, it's just that the world of arboriculture is a heckuvalot bigger than the ISA and some of it's more pompous know it all members, like for instance you, who are so fond of speaking in absolute and misleading terms that can be documented as false quite easily.

There are arborists throughout the US who practice proper pollarding, and do it very well despite the squeals of protest and horrified indignation by you and your fellow ISA snobs.

You and the ISA speaking in absolutes the way you do is almost comical in today's over fertilized modern arboricultural environment in terms of particular tree species and pollarding being an absolute no no. Erythrina caffra in SoCal is a perfect example of a tree taken out of it's natural environment and put into a modern one that feeds it so much water and fertilizer that if it's not pollarded every dang year it'll split out and hit the ground and anything under it pronto. In fact in some of the fancier commercial environments these trees find themselves in that really love their plush green grass all year round, these African coral trees have to be pollarded every 6 months or else.

What's true for some tree species is by no means true of all tree species by any stretch of the imagination regardless of how many books you've read or how many tests you've passed.

Instead of bad mouthing the pollarding practice so ignorantly the way both you and the ISA do, you need to start teaching that on some species of trees in some modern environments it is a perfectly valid means of treecare when done properly, and then give CEU's to arborists willing to learn the technique and do it right.

Get your noses out of the air and be a little more pragmatic and flexible about adapting to both older and newer arboricultural realities that need to be acknowledged, discussed and taught to beginning arborists eager to learn.

Your silly pompous attitudes towards beginners fuels the very practices you deplore. In today's world of high tech information accessibility through the internet, there is no excuse for trying to wring money and membership dues out of beginning arborists as is currently done by the ISA and others in our industry. Our industry is humble enough as it is without the ISA taking on airs and pricing themselves out of reach to anyone interested in an arboricultural career.

jomoco

 

[clearance]

Great post Jo.

TV can give it, but he can't take it. I can't speak to pollarding, I am not worthy to even speak about anything, I guess.:greenchainsaw:

 

[M.D. Vaden]

check the website; college courses get a lot; in many cases too much imo but that is another topic.

i agree with treevet but in the online forum the quality really varies but it is a free resource and there are less infomercials than before.

beast if you knew what went into those books you may not call their value inflated.

The free online system works. Any arborist with internet could get them all for free if they want.

I took a college class for my CEUs, because I still like college quite a bit, and money was not the issue.

 

[jrietkerk]

I'm surprised that LXT is upset about CEU's - did you sign the 'Certified Arborist Agreement' when you became certified with the ISA? This means you would have disclosed all your past criminal and neo-criminal activity to the Certification Board, as well as promising to disclose to them all and any issues that you get involved with in the future. CEU's are the least of your worries as a CA.
Any trade will have some kind of fee associated with certification or membership, however not many will track your legal status.

I've had to have certification for jobs too, but not because the ISA has lobbied my employer to make it mandatory - my employer looked for something to show that I am a professional, and there is nothing else around in my part of the world. My government sees us all as 'forestry workers', and regulates falling and yarding operations. As a 'residential' tree guy, my experience and references speak for themselves, but you can't put everything on paper.

 

[outofmytree]

Interesting thread.

I understand the OP's concern about the cost of ongoing education but it seemed that the money side of things can be resolved using the seminars TV suggested.

The second point regarding more Q&A after qualification than before makes perfect sense if you compare arboriculture to almost any other science. Most professions related to sciences allow for a basic qualification, an advanced qualification, a teaching qualification and numerous specialist qualifications. Why should arboriculture be any different? Or consider a trade. Once I became a sheet metal worker I could, if I chose, remain a standard tradesman. Or I had the option of taking certified welding courses, technical design courses, CAD courses, supervisory courses, management courses and so on. The only difference I can see is that some bright spark hit upon the idea of making ongoing education mandatory therefore ensuring that any CA had at least to be exposed to new information on a regular basis. Whether the information sinks in is of course another matter.

It remains a personal choice as to whether a tree professional chooses to gain formal certification, but if you are to pursue such a goal it is always better that it be hard to attain. Otherwise achieving the goal will not reward you emotionally or financially.

 

[treevet]

Now don't go pullin yur hair out TV, it's just that the world of arboriculture is a heckuvalot bigger than the ISA and some of it's more pompous know it all members, like for instance you, who are so fond of speaking in absolute and misleading terms that can be documented as false quite easily.

There are arborists throughout the US who practice proper pollarding, and do it very well despite the squeals of protest and horrified indignation by you and your fellow ISA snobs.

You and the ISA speaking in absolutes the way you do is almost comical in today's over fertilized modern arboricultural environment in terms of particular tree species and pollarding being an absolute no no. Erythrina caffra in SoCal is a perfect example of a tree taken out of it's natural environment and put into a modern one that feeds it so much water and fertilizer that if it's not pollarded every dang year it'll split out and hit the ground and anything under it pronto. In fact in some of the fancier commercial environments these trees find themselves in that really love their plush green grass all year round, these African coral trees have to be pollarded every 6 months or else.

What's true for some tree species is by no means true of all tree species by any stretch of the imagination regardless of how many books you've read or how many tests you've passed.

Instead of bad mouthing the pollarding practice so ignorantly the way both you and the ISA do, you need to start teaching that on some species of trees in some modern environments it is a perfectly valid means of treecare when done properly, and then give CEU's to arborists willing to learn the technique and do it right.

Get your noses out of the air and be a little more pragmatic and flexible about adapting to both older and newer arboricultural realities that need to be acknowledged, discussed and taught to beginning arborists eager to learn.

Your silly pompous attitudes towards beginners fuels the very practices you deplore. In today's world of high tech information accessibility through the internet, there is no excuse for trying to wring money and membership dues out of beginning arborists as is currently done by the ISA and others in our industry. Our industry is humble enough as it is without the ISA taking on airs and pricing themselves out of reach to anyone interested in an arboricultural career.

jomoco

YOU are one fahrt smeller (er I mean smart feller) joke a moke. No one can deny that and no one can ever take that away from you. But it doesn't take the kind of "figgerin out hard stuff" smarts you got to tell the dif. between pollarding and topping. It is all about establishing the pollard head and regularly maintaining it without damage.

When your boys on the thread (that you are poking at me for) on your forum (T H) say they are going to go out and pollard a bunch of silver maples and they show before and after picts. you don't need to be Einstein to figger out that ain't right.

Cheers :sword:

 

[clearance]

I've had to have certification for jobs too, but not because the ISA has lobbied my employer to make it mandatory - my employer looked for something to show that I am a professional, and there is nothing else around in my part of the world.



My government sees us all as 'forestry workers', and regulates falling and yarding operations. As a 'residential' tree guy, my experience and references speak for themselves, but you can't put everything on paper.

"Nothing else around" So, the ISA cert is better than nothing, is that what you are saying? So, something from Crackerjack box would be better than nothing as well, because, at least its someting, right?. Wow, hardly a stellar endorsement of the ISA, but, I agree, its better than nothing, I guess.:monkey:

Actually, the goverment does not see all treeguys as forestry workers, there is much regulation regarding tree work around powerlines, and regualations about fall protection and the like.

 

[lxt]

This is sum funny ***t, thanks clearance...I knew you`d understand.

Guys I dont need help with CEU`s!!!!!!! I just think one would do just as good re-taking the test every 3 years, IMHO

Look, I promote the cert. in advertisement, my website & other media avenues....so its not like im against Certification, Im against the BS & arrogance that goes with the cert.

as far as the CEU`s.... I was voicing my opinion...I THINK THERE RIPOFFS!! can I get them....YES! why am I complaining....because the continuing education requirement is more lengthy, time consuming & more costly than the original test to obtain the cert.!!!!! thats it!!

tried to rep some of you guys but it wont let me!


LXT....................

 

[Sunrise Guy]

This is sum funny ***t, thanks clearance...I knew you`d understand.

Guys I dont need help with CEU`s!!!!!!! I just think one would do just as good re-taking the test every 3 years, IMHO

Look, I promote the cert. in advertisement, my website & other media avenues....so its not like im against Certification, Im against the BS & arrogance that goes with the cert.

as far as the CEU`s.... I was voicing my opinion...I THINK THERE RIPOFFS!! can I get them....YES! why am I complaining....because the continuing education requirement is more lengthy, time consuming & more costly than the original test to obtain the cert.!!!!! thats it!!

tried to rep some of you guys but it wont let me!


LXT....................

Hmmm-Seems to me that you can get 18 CEU's, in three years, just from the free quizzes in the ISA magazine. Then all you need to do is attend three seminars that include 4 CEU's each, and you're set. CEU's are just that: CONTINUING Education Units. "Continuing" calls to mind the furthering of your education by keeping up with advances in your chosen profession. To retake the CA test every three years is laughingly dopey. You will (mostly) be going over the same old, same old. What a silly thing to do for the sake of saving a few bucks, as you're "angle" here seems to be.

 

[mckeetree]

So, something from Crackerjack box would be better than nothing as well, because, at least its something, right?.

Kind of like the Nobel Peace Prize. But seriously, I think you are missing his point.

 

[clearance]

Kind of like the Nobel Peace Prize. But seriously, I think you are missing his point.

Not at all, he said it. But I do understand where you are coming from. He knows more about trees than me, I am sure. As far as cutting trees down in a fast and nasty manner, thats another story.
I don't think anyone here knocking the ISA thinks they are totally useless, or terrible. Just that there are problems with the ISA. And others are mighty touchy about it.

 

[M.D. Vaden]

We need CEUs for the landscape board here too.

It's a really tough test. Honestly, I doubt that even 1 out every 100 members on this forum could even pass that one.

The ISA test was easier, but because of the experience mandate, I think its okay for a minimum threshold certificate.

Honestly, I think they ought to give some kind of credit in the ISA for every time someone renews their arborist certification with the CEUs.

Like belts in martial arts.

Every 3 years typically means 3 years more experience, plus the education CEUs.

We could give someone like LXT a white belt, and work up from there. Although, extra years of experience and college could be applied.

 

[NCTREE]

Most of the people in this forum either work for someone or themselves. Most companies pay for the employee's ISA dues. When I worked for a company they payed for me to get cert, payed my membership dues, and payed my way into the annual shade tree symposium. If you work for yourself I don't see the big deal, it's a tax write off and a small price to pay for continuing education. This is my profession and my hobby, I love what I do so learning something new has more worth to me then it's price tag. Plus it gives me an edge over Joe Smoe Tree Swacker!

 

[clearance]

Honestly, I think they ought to give some kind of credit in the ISA for every time someone renews their arborist certification with the CEUs.

Like belts in martial arts.

M.D., in martial arts, you have to do something to get the belt. I have met a few people with black belts this and third degree that, but I have yet to meet a book learned martial arts anything. Like, a martial arts expert who learned from books could kick my azz as good as a real black belt to the ntth degree?

 

[Adkpk]

No no no knave!

More like this my pompous bon vivant!

http://ourfrenchgarden.blogspot.com/2009/03/la-ville-de-sarlat.html

jomoco

Not taking a side here but that is funny. Nice site J.



Firstly, I see the reason for tree workers to need continuing ed. And I thank the ISA for taking on the job of putting all together so one can obtain the knowledge if wanted.

I pay my membership dues but have not taken the test, because the more I learn the more I find out I don't know but secondly because of the cost to keep it going, hence supporting the op's gripe.
I will stop here but want to add that I am still avidly studying from whatever books I can afford. "Modern Arborculture" by Shigo is next.

Oh ya, this thread is another great one. When you guys bang your heads together good stuff comes out.

 

[treevet]

I will stop here but want to add that I am still avidly studying from whatever books I can afford. "Modern Arborculture" by Shigo is next.

You can buy the whole set, vid included I think, at substantial discount. He used to have a great week long seminar by that name in Boone, NC that was probably the best learning experience ever (great food as well).

 

[treevet]

Honestly, I think they ought to give some kind of credit in the ISA for every time someone renews their arborist certification with the CEUs.

Like belts in martial arts.

Every 3 years typically means 3 years more experience, plus the education CEUs.

I have said this in the past too and have called the ISA with this opinion and the response was "interesting, I will pass it on". That was maybe 5 years ago or so. It could be exhibited after one's cert. number.

 

[jomoco]

Whose bright idea was this new ISA CA narc off program TV?

Wasn't you was it?

+1 on N Carolina quisine. Scott's barbeque sauce on pig! Real cornbread!

jomoco

 

[Sunrise Guy]

Most of the people in this forum either work for someone or themselves. Most companies pay for the employee's ISA dues. When I worked for a company they payed for me to get cert, payed my membership dues, and payed my way into the annual shade tree symposium. If you work for yourself I don't see the big deal, it's a tax write off and a small price to pay for continuing education. This is my profession and my hobby, I love what I do so learning something new has more worth to me then it's price tag. Plus it gives me an edge over Joe Smoe Tree Swacker!

Well said.

 

[clearance]

Regardleess of whose silly idea it was, it will only result in a civil war among ISA members themselves, thereby weakening the ISA and their goals further.

My respect goes to both independents and ISA members who let their work and policies speak for them, rather than playing silly espionage games and running off to tell the so called "authorities" like a frustrated child.

The ISA has enough problems as it is without actively soliciting more.

jomoco

I would like to hear more, sounds like a program where ISA types rat on thier fellows? Is this so? Please explain and post a link, I can't stand the blatant hypocrisy and bs involving some ISA types who violate the ISA rules. I am all ears.