Cordless Chainsaws and Outdoor Power Equipment

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I agree totally that balance, feel, build quality are personal choice and make the saw. I like the Makita saws for overall build quality though balance on the 36v models is somewhat off.

Power is a function of torque and chain speed. So for a given amount of power to the chain sprocket, you can have your choice of relationship between torque and chain speed (sprocket rpm). Most people's choice is as much of both as possible. That's why I went to great lengths to actually try and measure what the limitations of each model I could try. Luckily many people purchased these so I could try them out. The minimum chain speed most people I have talked to like is about 1500 fpm. Under 1000 fpm you begin to wonder if the tree is growing faster than you cut. If they cut power when you hit a few hundred watts out, then all the chain speed will not help because the chain will keep on jamming due to low torque limit.

For example, the EGO brushless chainsaw claims 56v. Actually battery voltage is more like 48v (14 cells in series). The battery voltage drops significantly under load due to the higher internal impedance of the lithium cell type (about 15 milliohms per cell). They also limit the max current from the battery due to lithium cell type (3C discharge rate) to 12 amps. They drop down the chain speed to keep the torque up. Poor performance results. They could have used $6 lithium cells instead of $2 ones and easily doubled the output current. Now we are talking the same power range as the Stihl MSA.

I think cutting ability is arbitrary. Given two saws with the same chain fpm and same torque limit/response, if you put the same chain on both they should cut the same. You may have to balance the chainsaw differently or press down differently, but they will cut the wood at the same rate.

My favorite cordless saw is my Makita UC3530A that I converted to a brushless cordless chainsaw. It uses slightly modified Dewalt 36v (actaully 33v) A123 LiFePO4 packs. The cells can be discharged at 30C (70 amps) continuously and have a very low cell impedance (3 milliohm when new). I ended up with a chain speed of 1800 fpm and the efficiency of the battery, motor controller, and motor hover at 90% from 0.5 hp to 2.5 hp out. I limit the peak current at 100 amps which works to almost 3.5 hp out. I did this 5 years ago and have been looking for an off the shelf replacement (it it time consuming to build the conversion, which I have done about a dozen). The Stihl and Ryobi 36v brushless chainsaws both appear to be good saws but limited in power due to the battery technology and safety margin needed for consumer products.

Hopefully I can get my hands on a Husqvarna 536 one of these days. 3500 fpm top chain speed. I might go out a get one and return it after testing but some of my testing definitely invalidates any warranty. A few chainsaws have catastrophically failed my testing (stopping chain at high load and full rpm, over discharging batteries, etc).


Welcome to AS!



Thanks for the tech input. This is clearly important information for designers, engineers, marketing people, etc. It is also helpful and interesting as a potential consumer. I would love to see a spreadsheet of this info if you get around to it. You can see a partial list of products and models I compiled a few months back, about 10 posts up, but this is already out of date. STIHL already has a second model out, Oregon has announced a brushless version, Toro has announced a saw, and others keep showing up in magazines and on store shelves.

I spoke with a Ryobi rep almost a year ago in a local Home Depot about a 36 - 40 volt class chainsaw - he said that they were coming, but I have only seen Ryobi 40 volt string trimmers and hedge trimmers locally. I see them now on the HD website, but no one in the local stores seems to know anything about them, including availability. I hope that they are available soon to take a look at.

I do have to disagree about cutting ability being 'arbitrary' - any spec in a spreadsheet can be misleading by itself, and I have made the mistake in the past of trying to be 'too objective', ending up with a less satisfactory product. What matters most is how the saw cuts, and how it holds up in use. It is easy to compare objectively using standardized chains and test fixtures. Battery life in use is more important to me than calculated rates. There is also value in subjective testing, side-by-side, in similar conditions, recognizing that different end users have different needs and expectations.

The feel, balance, torque, response, and overall build quality of the saw are important to me. Some of that is clearly personal preference. I think that it is fair to consider all of this '36 - 56' volt OPE as a class, but I want to test them individually in use; not just go by a spreadsheet or price tag.

Philbert
 
Okay, call me stupid. I have been doing my chain speed versus sprocket rpm wrong. I was wondering why the apparent chain speed seemed higher while cutting then my calculation when comparing saws. On a few chainsaws where I had both sprocket rpm and chain speed there was a factor of 2 error between specs and my calculation. I got it straight now. So here is my table of higher voltage chainsaws so far. I apologize for my previous errors. I have to throw out my previous ideas about the usability of the cheap Chinese import chainsaw. They Ryobi brushless chainsaw cut through the mesquite branch much faster than the Stihl MSA 160. I could not believe the Ryobi brushless chainspeed of 4500 ft/m but it appears real.

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Thanks for all of your leg work and calculations. I have limited technical knowledge about motors and batteries - I had to look up brushless motors on line to get a general understanding of how they work. I get some of the general, performance differences between Ni-Cd, NiMH, and Li-ion batteries, but at some point, have to trust the manufacturers on the specifics, along with other quality issues. After a product has been out a while, we can look back and see how it performed/held up.

A few notes on your chain specifications. Chains that are 3/8 should be identified as 'low profile', since they really function as a separate pitch from full sized 3/8 chains. And the 3/8 low profile chains that are 0.043 gauge, are most likely low profile and narrow kerf, which means a smaller 'bite' of wood, and less drain on the battery/motor. The Oregon CS250 comes equipped with 'PowerSharp' chain, which actually cut more aggressively than conventional 3/8 low profile, low kickback chains when I tried them in this saw. In most cases, an end user can substitute a different chain, assuming sprockets, etc., are readily available, with the understanding that chain pitch, type, sequence, etc., can also affect performance.

I would LOVE to have a cordless GTG where users could try all of these combinations side-by-side. Folks who attended the recent GIE trade show in KY probably had the best chance for this.

Philbert
 
This is a great thread; I think I'm actually going to buy one of these cordless saws for limbing when I'm out cutting. It looks like the Ryobi really is a bargain; the kit is $200 at Home Despot. I think I'll pick one up next time I go to town. Unimaginable only a few years ago to think about doing even light work with a cordless chainsaw, what a crazy world. If anyone else is using the Ryobi (or the Makita, as I have 18V Makita tools and batteries), please chip in. It's too bad the Makita motor isn't brushless, though, and the bare tool is going for $365 on Amazon.

I wonder how the Stihl MSA 200 compares with the 160?
 
I think I'm actually going to buy one of these cordless saws for limbing when I'm out cutting.

Whatever you decide, please post back with your experiences by posting here, or by starting a new thread on that model.

There are many brands to choose from (I tried to list some of them in Post # 50). Part of the choice could be cost; part could be the availability of product support if needed; part could be if you are looking for just one saw, or a family of tools that share the same batteries; and part could be how you intend to use the saw. Lots of ways to go.

Philbert
 
I have been watching for these in HD stores for a long time. None of the ones near me stock them. But the HD website just showed me a list of other area stores that stock them, so maybe I can go take a looks. Thanks.

Philbert
 
Way to go leybold, it would be nice if the manufacturers would watch what independent folks like you do and pick up on it. I wonder about some enginineering departments at times.
 
Just by chance, I ran across a nice promotional video for a new Black & Decker 40 volt chainsaw (LCS1240). I have not tried or used this saw. But also around $200 with a 12 inch bar, 2.0 amp hour Lithium-ion battery, and charger. Looks like 3/8 low profile chain.



Philbert
 
Cool. The tech info on these saws is somewhat lacking, so hard to compare. I did find a site that rebuilds the 40V battery with "Japanese" cells, not sure if this is the same battery part # but seems to be: http://www.ibatterys.com/40v936whli...r-ryobi-op4026-p-33077.html?cPath=37460_46507
If so, it is rated at about 94 w/h, more than the B&D. My impression of the Ryobi is that it's a more powerful machine, and I'm guessing that the B&D doesn't have a brushless motor. My experience with my old ni-cad Ryobi batteries is that they're (were?) pretty poor, I had to send them out to have the cells replaced with better cells.

Ryobi vid: https://www.ryobitools.com/outdoor/products/details/579

I'm kind of a flashlight/headlamp freak too, and the quality of Li-ion batteries, taking 18650 as an example, varies widely. The best, both in capacity and lifetime, are made by Panasonic, and then have the protection circuit fitted by Orbtronic, or many others. I wouldn't be surprised if you'd find 18650 cells inside the Ryobi battery, I think I read somewhere there were 10 cells? Each 18650 is nominally 3.7 volts and capacity varies from under 2000 mah to around 3600 mah.

This Ryobi is about at the upper limit of weight for what I want. I just weighed my Dolmar 401 with a 13" bar and it's a bit over 11 lbs, partially fueled and oiled. The Ryobi is less than that.
 
I am not an expert on the batteries or electronics. I have to go somewhat by brand reputation, by use and feel, and by the experiences reported by others on sites like this.

It would be nice if places like Batteries+ (just as an example) would rebuild Li-Ion cells, because the batteries are one of the most expensive components of these saws, and some of these companies will not be around in 4 or 5 years when we start needing replacements! I know that lithium cells can be more tricky to deal with, due to their nasty tendency to catch fire when damaged, exposed to air, little things like that.

Philbert
 
This is a great thread; I think I'm actually going to buy one of these cordless saws for limbing when I'm out cutting. It looks like the Ryobi really is a bargain; the kit is $200 at Home Despot. I think I'll pick one up next time I go to town. Unimaginable only a few years ago to think about doing even light work with a cordless chainsaw, what a crazy world. If anyone else is using the Ryobi (or the Makita, as I have 18V Makita tools and batteries), please chip in. It's too bad the Makita motor isn't brushless, though, and the bare tool is going for $365 on Amazon.

I wonder how the Stihl MSA 200 compares with the 160?
I bought the MSA 160 about 4 months ago. It gets used at least an hour or two a day....at least 5 days a week. I use it for chainsaw carving...mostly details and some full smallish carvings (2ft tall). I've been carving for about 20 years, 17 years as my full time gig.....so I've had dozens of saws over the years. I've been extremely happy with this 160 saw.
A few days ago i picked up the MSA 200. I was thinking it was just going to be a slight increase in power, and I would have been happy with that. But to my surprise the 200 really is MUCH, MUCH more capable. It can make full bar length cuts without bogging down and just plain has more snot! I am thrilled with both of these saws...but the MSA 200 is really the way to go. The 160 will still see a lot of use, but I put a 8" dime tip carving bar on it...so it will be mostly for fine detail finishing. The MSA 200 is really comparable to a small gas saw....it cuts as quickly, if not quicker than my ms150's.
I've got an urge after reading this thread to go snag a Ryobi.....for $200 bucks how could I go wrong. I'll just return it if its a turd.
I'm also an electric RC car fanatic, so I'm no stranger to brushless motors powered by lithium batteries. This technology is advancing so quickly. I can't wait to see what kind of power were gonna see out of brushless saws over the next 5 or 10 years!!!!:)
 
I bought the MSA 160 about 4 months ago. . . . A few days ago i picked up the MSA 200.
Great that you have both to compare side-by-side!

I assume that both STIHL saws use the same battery?

Are there amperage or wattage ratings on the 2 saws?

How about the chain? As I recall, the smaller saw uses 1/4 inch pitch chain. how about the MSA200?

Thanks!

Philbert
 
Yup...they run the same battery. I have 2 of the higher capacity stihl batteries. I forget what they're titled as...mp180's or something. The two saws are actually physically identical from the outside. Just the brushless motors/speed controller....the insides....are different. I'm not sure off the top of my head of the power ratings. ...
Both saws use the mini 1/4" .043 chain. This chain is just plain awesome. It cuts extremely fast and smooth. Far better than 3/8, or standard .050 1/4" chain. I just bought a 25' reel of this chain because i run it on 5 of my saws now. Both Battery saws, two ms150's, ....and I even adapted an MS 250 to run it. This chain is a big part of the success of these saws....such little resistance/friction. It just smoothly slices through the wood....never any roughness, bouncing, or chattering (even in Oak, Walnut, and other hardwoods I've messed with.)
 
The MSA 200 is really comparable to a small gas saw....it cuts as quickly, if not quicker than my ms150's.
I've got an urge after reading this thread to go snag a Ryobi.....for $200 bucks how could I go wrong. I'll just return it if its a turd.
I'm also an electric RC car fanatic, so I'm no stranger to brushless motors powered by lithium batteries. This technology is advancing so quickly. I can't wait to see what kind of power were gonna see out of brushless saws over the next 5 or 10 years!!!!:)

You should definitely get one, that would be perfect, I'd love to see how the Ryobi stacks up against the MSA200. I'd be interested to know what kind of cells are in the battery packs.
 
I'm probably gonna pick up a Ryobi early next week... Ill post my thoughts after i run it a bit. I know for sure that the 3/8" .043 chain that comes with it won't cut as smoothly or efficiently as the 1/4" .043 Stihl chain. I've run that .043 3/8 on many saws in the past. But I would be looking to use the Ryobi mostly for texturing fur/feathers into carvings...a bit rougher chain sometimes works well for this. Who knows...maybe I can find a sprocket to adapt the 1/4" to the Ryobi
 
I'm probably gonna pick up a Ryobi early next week... Ill post my thoughts after i run it a bit. I know for sure that the 3/8" .043 chain that comes with it won't cut as smoothly or efficiently as the 1/4" .043 Stihl chain. I've run that .043 3/8 on many saws in the past. But I would be looking to use the Ryobi mostly for texturing fur/feathers into carvings...a bit rougher chain sometimes works well for this. Who knows...maybe I can find a sprocket to adapt the 1/4" to the Ryobi

Oregon makes a narrow kerf 3/8 .043 for it. Wonder what kind of chain it'll come with. I've never used that 1/4 Stihl chain.
 
I'm sayin', we need a cordless GTG!!!

Good to have user input on different saws, and different uses. I am sure that the 1/4 pitch is the way to go for a lot of carving tasks. I only tried the MSA160 at a display on some 4 inch diameter birch. A little slow for firewood cutting.

Most of my hands-on experience has been with the Oregon cordless products. The CS250 runs 3/8 low profile, PowerSharp chain (.050). The Oregon 40 Volt pole saw runs the 3/8, low profile, narrow kerf chain (.043), which cuts really well, but it is used mostly on smaller limbs with an 8 inch bar.

Oregon announced a new, brushless saw (Spring 2015?) that they claim will have 40% more power and a 16 inch bar (instead of 14 inch) - maybe this is the same type of step up as from the MSA160 to MSA200?

Philbert
 
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