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Old thread. New info.

Got to 'try' a Makita 36 Volt saw today at a local tool show (got to turn it on, but not cut anything). has a 12 inch bar, and appeared to be running 3/8 low profile, narrow kerf, .043 chain - I guess to get the most out of the battery power.

(photos are uploading slow, so I will stick with the thumbnails for right now)

First impressions:
- very light
- well balanced
- top handled
- feels like it would cut more like the STIHL than the Oregon battery saws.

Will probably appeal to some arborists for a light, easy to start, in the tree saw for light trimming. List price is $599, which is quite a bit more than the Oregon (don't know what the STIHL saw is going for).

One cool feature is an adaptor that lets you use (2) 18 volt batteries in tandem, instead of the 36 volt battery: a big plus for someone already invested in Makita 18 volt tools. Don't know what the battery capacity is to compare it to the Oregon, STIHL, or other saws.

The Bosch rep said that their 36 volt battery saw is still not available in the US. Ryobi has some 36 volt OPE in the aisles at The Home Depot, but I have not seen their saw yet.

Data sheet: MAKITA Industrial Power Tools - Tool Details - HCU02C1

Philbert
 
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The saw is part of a family of new tools, hedge trimmer and leaf blower. I had a look at the hedge trimmer and it was a substantial peice of gear. There is even a battery powered lawnmower !

I have the hedge trimmer and will say without a doubt it is the strongest hedge trimmer stihl sells
 
I have the hedge trimmer and will say without a doubt it is the strongest hedge trimmer stihl sells

I have the STIHL corded electric hedge trimmer. Powerful, well made tool. I have also been using the Oregon battery powered hedge trimmer, which works very well, but not as fast. However, it actually feels lighter than the corded tool - might be a balance thing.

Philbert
 
Wow, the stongest trimmer Stihl sells? Guess I'll have to dump my HS81R for a battery unit.
 
Neither was I impressed till I removed the limiter caps and retuned it. Now my FS81R is a very different machine. I'd say it gained at least 40% as I wanted to get rid of it before.
 
I have a rechargeable weed whip from Stihl... the wife like to trim while I now bit doesn't like my FS 55. I will admit it is a very capable trimmer, so I would expect the chainsaw version to be as well.

We just have a 2 acre lot with lits of trees to trim around and it will go many trimmings on one charge. I bet we don't charge it fives times all
Mowing season.
 
Old thread - time to 'recharge'?

I did a search for 36 volt and 40 volt battery powered chainsaws (or OPE) a month or two ago, and found the information below! This number has really jumped in the last 2 years. I did not include smaller (e.g. 18 volt) saws, as they are really in a separate class.

Organized alphabetically for reference. Some are brand names you know. Some are captive store brands. Some are not available (yet?) in the US, so I listed UK sites. Some appear to be off-shore manufacturers. A few look similar enough that they are probably re-branded clones.

Many are part of a 'system' with other outdoor power tools (string trimmers, hedge trimmers, etc.) that use the same batteries and chargers. A few do not list chainsaws or pole saws (yet); but this product mix is changing quickly, so they may be added soon.

As with anything else: caveat emptor!

Philbert

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Black & Decker http://www.blackanddecker.com/recharge/

Bosch (UK) http://www.bosch-garden.com/gb/en/garden-tools/garden-tools/cordless-chainsaws-199952.jsp

Core Outdoor Power http://coreoutdoorpower.com/

Craftsman http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_...400010000100675&aff=Y&PID=361116&AID=11042411

EcoproTools Inc http://www.ecoprotoolsusa.com/

EGO (56 volt!) http://egopowerplus.com/

Greenworks / Sunrise Tools http://www.greenworkstools.com/products/category/chainsaws

Greysen (off shore manufacturer?) http://greysenproducts.com/40-Volt-Chain-Saw-Powered-by-LG-Chem-Lithium-Battery-GP-CS.htm

Husqvarna (UK - Homeowner) http://www.husqvarna.com/uk/outther...series-professional-products-for-home-owners/

Husqvarna (UK - Professional) http://www.husqvarna.com/uk/products/battery-series/t536li-xp/

Kobalt http://www.kobalttools.com/products/outdoor/outdoor-power-equipment.html
http://www.lowes.com/Kobalt-40-Volt...weyrZ1z0wgez/pl?Ns=p_product_qty_sales_dollar|1#!

Makita http://www.makitatools.com/en-us/Modules/Tools/X2/HCU02ZX2Features.aspx

Oregon PowerNow Tools http://oregoncordless.com/products/

Ryobi http://www.ryobitools.com/

STIHL http://www.stihlusa.com/products/battery/

Yardworks (*can only find reviews; not a manufacturer’s website) http://reviews.canadiantire.ca/9045...ctric-chainsaw-12-a-16-in-reviews/reviews.htm
 
The greenworks (and the oregon) have pretty good reviews on the big river trade site.

This is funny, my friend the local husky wrench is gonna get a batt saw for his GF, something easy to start, which those certainly are. I still recommended the oregon saw because of the built in powersharp. Little higher price over some of the others but that feature is wicked cool, IMO.

Hmm, need to start another can collection and save change for a 4 amp hour battery now.
 
Unless you are buying it for one season of use, or a as a 'throw-away' saw, I would suggest going with a brand where you can expect support and parts availability several years down the road.

Bars and chains will probably always be available, but the battery formats are unique. And they are expensive to replace. Maybe a place like Batteries Plus can rebuild some of the battery packs if they become obsolete/ I don't think that they do the lithium-ion batteries now.

The other question is if you might want one or more of the other tools down the line (e.g. pole saw, hedge trimmer, string trimmer, etc.) that share the same batteries/chargers. Most of these are sold as a 'family' of OPE.

Philbert
 
Saw the STIHL cordless, telescoping pole saw at the MN State Fair today. Shaft appears heavy duty. Motor appears to be at the saw end (unlike shaft drive pole saws). Around $550 + battery and charger?

There are 2 models of their conventional battery saws now: 160 and 200. They look similar, so I assume one has a larger motor. I would have thought that they would have made a top handle battery saw next.

Also saw a Toro 48V battery powered string trimmer. Rep said a chainsaw and other OPE will follow.

Philbert
 
Just to complete your lineup Philbert

Hitachi CS36DL

cs36dl.jpg


http://www.hitachi-koki.com/equipment/products/li_ion_e/cs36dl/cs36dl.html

They also have a complete lineup of cordless outdoor equipment and a backpack battery for real long run time!



7
 
........ I would have thought that they would have made a top handle battery saw next.

Also saw a Toro 48V battery powered string trimmer. Rep said a chainsaw and other OPE will follow.

Philbert

msa160t is out there...just don't think its in the usa yet. I was at toro headquarters last year and they were in talks of the saw...asked our input and stuff. the consensus was eh.
 
Just to complete your lineup Philbert

Hitachi CS36DL

cs36dl.jpg


http://www.hitachi-koki.com/equipment/products/li_ion_e/cs36dl/cs36dl.html

They also have a complete lineup of cordless outdoor equipment and a backpack battery for real long run time!



7


It's cyborg robovoltman! heheheh

I like the backpack battery, the lighted bar oil tank, etc. Looks to be a winner on package combo deals. Oh, and the variable speed options, another good feature.

Well, depends on the price, but hitachi can and has made some good stuff in the past.
 
I have had the luck to test quite of few of the high voltage (36-56v) chainsaws to be able to actually measure their true output power, chains speed, battery impedance, etc. I was not concerned about actual cutting ability since that is so dependent on the chain and a fairly arbitrary measurement. I got involved in this because as part of my work I have built several cordless chainsaws (before any higher volt models were available) for specific scientific use and have been looking for "off the self" unit to use. About the only saw I have not seen yet is the Husqvarna 536 cordless (so far too much money) though I have been able to piece together some information on it.

When I say true power output, it is a function of a couple of things. One is the internal impedances of the motor, electronics, and battery; the other is the "safety" limit built into the electronics. In all cases so far the internal safety limit of the electronics limits the power below the max efficiency point for the combination of motor/electronics/battery. The higher the efficiency to longer the given cut time for a set of batteries. Why do they limit the power to the motor? To protect the batteries and electronics.

On the subject of brushless versus brushed motor, brushless wins hands down for power/weight/efficiency. With the proper setup, brushless motors can have a fairly broad 85% plus efficiency band. With brushed motors in these tools, you a lucky to even hit 85% peak efficiency, more likely in the mid 70's. Since the brushed motors are much less efficient, you have to use extra power to provide cooling to the motor. For example, the Makita 36v chainsaw uses a brushed motor and it consumes about 70 watts of power to cool itself. The Stihl MSA 160 brushless motor uses about 20 watts of power for cooling. Also, the brushless motors have a much lower impedance. The Stihl MSA motor has an internal resistance of 0.03 ohms. The Makita 36v chainsaw has an internal resistance of 0.31 ohms (one of the primary reasons for lower efficiency). The higher the resistance the higher the losses.

Another big issue is the impedance of the batteries. Higher impedances in the battery increase the self heating of the battery and drop the overall system efficiency. The big name brand companies use high discharge rate batteries with low internal impedance. Most of the cheap Chinese use higher capacity cells which have lower discharge rates and higher impedances. The companies that use the high discharge rate battery cells are Stihl, Makita, and surprisingly Ryobi. The EGO, Oregon, and Greenworks use higher capacity cells which have higher impedances which lead to more losses and battery self heating. On higher impedance cells, the manufacturers limit the current from the cells to prevent them from destroying themselves. Lower current means lower torque. So a good indicator of the discharge rate of the battery is the chain speed. The manufacturer trades lower chain speed to get more torque (speed times torque is power output) so you don't stall easily.

For example, the EGO (chain speed about 1200 fpm) lithium cells can be discharges at 3 times their capacity (3C) safely. So the manufacturer limits the current output of the motor controller to 12 amps (3 times 4 amp-hr). So given that the battery voltage of the EGO is 48v (I know, the 56v is the max charge voltage), the max draw from the cells is about 600w. Give the losses in the batteries, controller and motor, the max power to the chain is only about 450 watts, or about 0.6 hp.

In comparison, the Stihl and Ryobi brushless chainsaw batteries are high discharge rate (10C). Chain speed on both is 2000-2200 fpm. The electronics current limit on both kick in at about 25 amps (6C for a 4 amp-hr pack). So given they both have 37v battery packs (42 volt max charge voltage), they can both draw 970 watts from the batteries. With the lower impedance cells, the losses of the batteries is less so the max chain power delivered is close to 800 watts (about 1.05 hp) even though the battery voltage is less than the EGO. The efficiency at max power is close to 85%. It would actually peak at max efficiency of 90% at about 34 amps which is beyond the electronic limit of the controller.

So what does this all mean? Higher chain speed seems to indicate a lower battery impedance which in turn indicates a higher efficiency/better quality. Don't bother with a brushed motor chainsaw due to the lower efficiency. The Makita 36v chainsaw is a nice durable, light saw but the max power chain output is only about 500w as I measure it and its max efficiency is only 70% due to the large amount of cooling and an high internal resistance of the motor.

If I can figure how to do it, I can generate a table and put it in this discussion of chain speed, max power, etc. It appears that the real bargain chainsaw out there is the Ryobi 40v (actually 37v) brushless chainsaw. At $200 for the chainsaw with battery and charger it performs as well as the Stihl MSA 160. It uses a standard 3/8" Pico chain so you have a large selection of chains available. Originally the Ryobi came with a 4 amp-hr battery but now it seems to only come with the 2 amp-hr as standard. If you can live with the Ryobi brushless chainsaw not having a chain brake it is good buy.
 
I have had the luck to test quite of few of the high voltage (36-56v) chainsaws to be able to actually measure their true output power, chains speed, battery impedance, etc. I was not concerned about actual cutting ability since that is so dependent on the chain and a fairly arbitrary measurement. I got involved in this because as part of my work I have built several cordless chainsaws (before any higher volt models were available) for specific scientific use and have been looking for "off the self" unit to use. About the only saw I have not seen yet is the Husqvarna 536 cordless (so far too much money) though I have been able to piece together some information on it.

When I say true power output, it is a function of a couple of things. One is the internal impedances of the motor, electronics, and battery; the other is the "safety" limit built into the electronics. In all cases so far the internal safety limit of the electronics limits the power below the max efficiency point for the combination of motor/electronics/battery. The higher the efficiency to longer the given cut time for a set of batteries. Why do they limit the power to the motor? To protect the batteries and electronics.

On the subject of brushless versus brushed motor, brushless wins hands down for power/weight/efficiency. With the proper setup, brushless motors can have a fairly broad 85% plus efficiency band. With brushed motors in these tools, you a lucky to even hit 85% peak efficiency, more likely in the mid 70's. Since the brushed motors are much less efficient, you have to use extra power to provide cooling to the motor. For example, the Makita 36v chainsaw uses a brushed motor and it consumes about 70 watts of power to cool itself. The Stihl MSA 160 brushless motor uses about 20 watts of power for cooling. Also, the brushless motors have a much lower impedance. The Stihl MSA motor has an internal resistance of 0.03 ohms. The Makita 36v chainsaw has an internal resistance of 0.31 ohms (one of the primary reasons for lower efficiency). The higher the resistance the higher the losses.

Another big issue is the impedance of the batteries. Higher impedances in the battery increase the self heating of the battery and drop the overall system efficiency. The big name brand companies use high discharge rate batteries with low internal impedance. Most of the cheap Chinese use higher capacity cells which have lower discharge rates and higher impedances. The companies that use the high discharge rate battery cells are Stihl, Makita, and surprisingly Ryobi. The EGO, Oregon, and Greenworks use higher capacity cells which have higher impedances which lead to more losses and battery self heating. On higher impedance cells, the manufacturers limit the current from the cells to prevent them from destroying themselves. Lower current means lower torque. So a good indicator of the discharge rate of the battery is the chain speed. The manufacturer trades lower chain speed to get more torque (speed times torque is power output) so you don't stall easily.

For example, the EGO (chain speed about 1200 fpm) lithium cells can be discharges at 3 times their capacity (3C) safely. So the manufacturer limits the current output of the motor controller to 12 amps (3 times 4 amp-hr). So given that the battery voltage of the EGO is 48v (I know, the 56v is the max charge voltage), the max draw from the cells is about 600w. Give the losses in the batteries, controller and motor, the max power to the chain is only about 450 watts, or about 0.6 hp.

In comparison, the Stihl and Ryobi brushless chainsaw batteries are high discharge rate (10C). Chain speed on both is 2000-2200 fpm. The electronics current limit on both kick in at about 25 amps (6C for a 4 amp-hr pack). So given they both have 37v battery packs (42 volt max charge voltage), they can both draw 970 watts from the batteries. With the lower impedance cells, the losses of the batteries is less so the max chain power delivered is close to 800 watts (about 1.05 hp) even though the battery voltage is less than the EGO. The efficiency at max power is close to 85%. It would actually peak at max efficiency of 90% at about 34 amps which is beyond the electronic limit of the controller.

So what does this all mean? Higher chain speed seems to indicate a lower battery impedance which in turn indicates a higher efficiency/better quality. Don't bother with a brushed motor chainsaw due to the lower efficiency. The Makita 36v chainsaw is a nice durable, light saw but the max power chain output is only about 500w as I measure it and its max efficiency is only 70% due to the large amount of cooling and an high internal resistance of the motor.

If I can figure how to do it, I can generate a table and put it in this discussion of chain speed, max power, etc. It appears that the real bargain chainsaw out there is the Ryobi 40v (actually 37v) brushless chainsaw. At $200 for the chainsaw with battery and charger it performs as well as the Stihl MSA 160. It uses a standard 3/8" Pico chain so you have a large selection of chains available. Originally the Ryobi came with a 4 amp-hr battery but now it seems to only come with the 2 amp-hr as standard. If you can live with the Ryobi brushless chainsaw not having a chain brake it is good buy.

This is an excellent post!

I am not surprised at all with The Ryobi being a good deal and a good tool, they have been in the battery powered tool business for a long time now.
 
Welcome to AS!

I have had the luck to test quite of few of the high voltage (36-56v) chainsaws to be able to actually measure their true output power, chains speed, battery impedance, etc. I was not concerned about actual cutting ability since that is so dependent on the chain and a fairly arbitrary measurement.

Thanks for the tech input. This is clearly important information for designers, engineers, marketing people, etc. It is also helpful and interesting as a potential consumer. I would love to see a spreadsheet of this info if you get around to it. You can see a partial list of products and models I compiled a few months back, about 10 posts up, but this is already out of date. STIHL already has a second model out, Oregon has announced a brushless version, Toro has announced a saw, and others keep showing up in magazines and on store shelves.

I spoke with a Ryobi rep almost a year ago in a local Home Depot about a 36 - 40 volt class chainsaw - he said that they were coming, but I have only seen Ryobi 40 volt string trimmers and hedge trimmers locally. I see them now on the HD website, but no one in the local stores seems to know anything about them, including availability. I hope that they are available soon to take a look at.

I do have to disagree about cutting ability being 'arbitrary' - any spec in a spreadsheet can be misleading by itself, and I have made the mistake in the past of trying to be 'too objective', ending up with a less satisfactory product. What matters most is how the saw cuts, and how it holds up in use. It is easy to compare objectively using standardized chains and test fixtures. Battery life in use is more important to me than calculated rates. There is also value in subjective testing, side-by-side, in similar conditions, recognizing that different end users have different needs and expectations.

The feel, balance, torque, response, and overall build quality of the saw are important to me. Some of that is clearly personal preference. I think that it is fair to consider all of this '36 - 56' volt OPE as a class, but I want to test them individually in use; not just go by a spreadsheet or price tag.

Philbert
 

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