DDRT without footlocking?

[beastmaster]

Your legs are the strongest muscles on your body, and by what they do built for endurance. Learn to use your legs and you'll eliminate tiring out the arms, that your going to need once up in the tree to work. Footlock or foot device both are going to free up energy your going to need in your arms to do work. If your just doing one small tree, maybe it doesn't matter. But if its a really long ascend or a whole bunch of small ones then its all about not tiring your arms out.
Many times Iv'e seen several climbers not come down for lunch, because they couldn't do the ascend again. I would repel down and footlock back up after lunch
Now I SRT and some climbers are always racing me up the tree pulling them selfs up. Sometimes they beat me, but I'm not even hurrying, and I don't even brake a sweat SRTing up. They'll learn, just some people are really stubborn.
If your not using your legs or a wraptor, your cheating your self.
PS I can footlock and not use my arms to hold me up. Ive worked off of a footlock many times.

 

[Tree Pig]

You don't need to footlock, you can if you want to. If I feel that need I just put on the Pantin. The point being that with the LJ & SJ if you pull yourself up, say using a double handled ascender, the tail of the rope just glides through the device until you load it by putting your weight on it.

Footlocking gives you enough purchase on the rope to advance the knot up the rope, beyond that, I don't think it adds much to actually get you up the rope. Try foot locking and letting go with your hands and see how long you can stay there without sliding down.

Beastmaster is explaining exactly what I am talking about. Rope climbing for a trim (without spikes) footlocking is fast an efficient, you cant comprehend the concept because you dont do it. Other then mentioned a full tree frog or rads system footlocking is prolly the fastest most efficient system. A single pantin is not nearly as good for long climbs. You must be basing your theory on some of them short 5 - 10 foot climbs you do off your ladder. Make a fifty foot climb on a pantin after take a few weeks to learn to footlock and then you tell me pantin is faster or easier.

 

[Iustinian]

here is a pic of an adjustable system, which would work well for body-thrusting. You can set the distel (or w/e knot you like) up higher at first so you can get the most out of each thrust; when you get to a standing point, slide your knot, and the prussic cord (which keeps the whole system at the length you set it) down close to your saddle and you can limb-walk and work the tree like you normally would. This system is convenient for guys who are used to old school, but recently switched to closed system, who are now reefing their line hand over hand and then tending slack every couple of pulls -- it will feel quite a bit more natural if you're used to Blakes or tautline. And you wont have to re-tie once you get up there, just slide it all down close, and you're ready to go.

 

[Scrat]

Aerialist,
I agree with Beastmaster and Stihl-o-matic
It is absolutely about efficiency and energy conservation. It sounds like your foot locking method may need improvement if you feel that using your legs aren't helping you. I find when SRTing my arms primarily aid in balancing and progressing my foot loop and hitch, my legs are what really propel you up. I believe a fair comparison in effort used and by what muscle groups would be like going up a ladder. Please don't tell me you pull yourself up with your arms and drag your legs behind. And if you do (I mean the arm to leg effort ratio) than you need help with your ascending skills-once you get it down pat then you will most likely not go back to arm hauling.

Sorry you are getting a bit bashed but I saw a video that a guy (no name....) went up a ladder while on DRT to Ascend, which could be seen as lazy or energy efficient, then limb crawl...ok everyone has their skill/comfort level but then they did not tie in their lanyard and proceeded to one hand a chainsaw repeatedly while in poor work position and maximum arm extension. Personally if this has been this individuals mode of operation for 30 years than he is real lucky and should stop at EVERY church he drives by and put a sizable donation in the basket.

Just being objective and observant -no ill intended

 

[Zale]

I had to go back and read the OP question. Like others have said, your leg muscles are the strongest muscles in your body. Footlocking is a skill that takes time to develop. I prefer footlocking on ascenders. Its up to you which method you like. There is no one right way. If I had footlocked earlier in my career, my shoulders and elbows might not hurt like they do. Economy of motion and energy will extend your climbing career.

 

[husabud]

Buy a Wraptor and leave your damn spikes at home. no foot locking and no holding on. Better yet no Bull sheet in the thread.

 

[ForTheArborist]

The DRT was OK today :msp_thumbup:, and just for sport I taught my "roady" everything I know about it as I set up. Teaching always helps the full understanding of subjects, and it's a good investment to keep teach somebody your craft.

I only put on the prussic tender and put on a medium petzl rope grabber from my old flipline. That was it. No foot locking, but these were all only about 15'+ climbs today.


Beast is def right about foot locking the long climbs, but I will keep snapping on the petzl ascenders w/ handles on them and the stir-up on the bottom of one of them for the high climbs.

I thought it was slick idea to wrap the rope around the boot once on the descent, and step on it with the other one before loosening my rope grabber. One wrap around the boot was essentially a figure 8 on the line.

This cheap device is probably all a guy needs and maybe a shunt above it, but will it ruin the rope?

I think it's a good idea to stick to the prussic or blakes knot when actually working in the tree and not just entering the tree. None of the mechanical devices I've seen are capable of immediately grabbing the rope if there is a fall except for the ascenders with the little teeth. The problem is the teeth don't let the mechanical device slide like I want when I'm working.

So that's enough of this subject for now. Thanks for the knowledge. I always brag on you guys here to anyone I talk Arb-talk to. My "roady" and I got a kick out of the new techniques and so forth today.


Aerialist's, that system is genius. Definitely slick. +1

 

[Iustinian]

tibloc

The DRT was OK today :msp_thumbup:, and just for sport I taught my "roady" everything I know about it as I set up. Teaching always helps the full understanding of subjects, and it's a good investment to keep teach somebody your craft.

I only put on the prussic tender and put on a medium petzl rope grabber from my old flipline. That was it. No foot locking, but these were all only about 15'+ climbs today.


Beast is def right about foot locking the long climbs, but I will keep snapping on the petzl ascenders w/ handles on them and the stir-up on the bottom of one of them for the high climbs.

I thought it was slick idea to wrap the rope around the boot once on the descent, and step on it with the other one before loosening my rope grabber. One wrap around the boot was essentially a figure 8 on the line.

This cheap device is probably all a guy needs and maybe a shunt above it, but will it ruin the rope?

I think it's a good idea to stick to the prussic or blakes knot when actually working in the tree and not just entering the tree. None of the mechanical devices I've seen are capable of immediately grabbing the rope if there is a fall except for the ascenders with the little teeth. The problem is the teeth don't let the mechanical device slide like I want when I'm working.

So that's enough of this subject for now. Thanks for the knowledge. I always brag on you guys here to anyone I talk Arb-talk to. My "roady" and I got a kick out of the new techniques and so forth today.


Aerialist's, that system is genius. Definitely slick. +1

tibloc is not ansi compliant for life support, if that matters to you. handy lightweight tool, but I don't climb on it.

 

[ForTheArborist]

tibloc is not ansi compliant for life support, if that matters to you. handy lightweight tool, but I don't climb on it.

Thanks for the word. Yeah, it matters.

 

[Iustinian]

Thanks for the word. Yeah, it matters.

Right on. One of my favorite ropes is a 10mm, and it's technically not ANSI complaint either, but my 10mm is rated for my geared up weight, and I've never had a problem with it, thought maybe you felt the same about your tibloc.

That having been said, I just found this:

"I think it is important to have a contrasting view on this piece of hardware. If it is not used correctly it will DESTROY a rope. Although this is true for several pieces of climbing equipment, I have yet to see something that has as many dangerous set up methods. You can view the documentation at the Petzl website on all the precautions for this device.

My main reason for writing this is to tell my Tibloc experience: At the climbing gym I work at, the new classes we teach are always first taught to some staff members. I was part of a self rescue class, taking it with my climbing partner. He had bought the Tibloc a week earlier, having been convinced of its versatility, especially in rescue. We were practicing hauling up an "incompetent second". He was hauling, I was hanging there next to him watching. He set up a vertical z-pulley system (no pulleys, just dual carabiners. Think of a crevasse rescue z-pulley turned vertically.) He added the tibloc to the pulling end of the rope. I know this is kind of hard to imagine, but the general idea is that he wanted to be able to use his body weight to push down on the hauling end of the rope, instead of trying to just pull with his hands. This was especially important because of how much friction the rope experienced with out any pulleys. Anyway, the tibloc was attached to the end of the rope he was pulling on because the prussic would not hold. (Just in case there is still confusion, the set up was: Tibloc and carabiner attached to end of rope being pulled, which was attached to a length of cord which was stood on by the hauler to push down the rope and, through the z-setup, pull up the second climber) I had doubts about the tibloc, but the first few pulls started to convince me that it was a good emergency device. Then it happened. The hauler stood on the cord attached to the tibloc to do another pull and RRRRRIIIIPPPPP!!!!!. I had never heard a sheath rip before, and i hope never to hear it again. My partner had gotten into a rhythm and had not set the tibloc properly and the tibloc ate up a half foot section of sheath. Luckily, we were in a controlled environment and the rope was a training rope, but the person being hauled still jumped right back on the wall and became much more "competent" at that point. I have since told my climbing partner that unless one of us is about to die, and there is no other option, I never want this thing touching any rope that I am on.

The point is that the tibloc is being praised as a great piece of emergency equipment. However, when the s**t hits the fan and you need to use this thing, you may not pay attention to it enough, and end up in a far worse situation. It is very important for everyone who owns one of these things to get a piece of scrap rope (ask your local gym or climbing store) and at least go though the proper set up of this thing several times. All the right, and wrong, ways of set up should be seen, and the correct uses should be practiced over and over again. You should actually watch it lock as you put weight on it

I feel that it is counter-intuitive to have a piece of emergency equipment that needs constant attention to be used safely." This thing is dangerous - Petzl Tibloc - Epinions.com


Based on what he/she said, and the fact that they were in a climbing gym, under the supervision and approval of trained climbers and not subjecting this equipment to the rigors of tree work, I hope that you will stop using that Tibloc for life support.

stay safe bro

 

[beastmaster]

Yes a tibloc will tare up some ropes. Any ascender that has teeth is bad news if your shock loaded with full weight plus what ever force is generated by a short fall. A toothed acsender can cut throu a line if there is enough shock load on it. I some times use less then perfect tie ins on My SRT. That is why I like a gri gri. If my rope should somehow drop me a few feet from a branch folding or breaking I am still all right. I sometimes use a lot of smaller branches to support me over a canopy. Your not going to fall but you could move suddenly.
The only toothed acsender I use is a chest croll sometimes and I make sure to have a super good support system.

 

[Iustinian]

Yes a tibloc will tare up some ropes. Any ascender that has teeth is bad news if your shock loaded with full weight plus what ever force is generated by a short fall. A toothed acsender can cut throu a line if there is enough shock load on it. I some times use less then perfect tie ins on My SRT. That is why I like a gri gri. If my rope should somehow drop me a few feet from a branch folding or breaking I am still all right. I sometimes use a lot of smaller branches to support me over a canopy. Your not going to fall but you could move suddenly.
The only toothed acsender I use is a chest croll sometimes and I make sure to have a super good support system.

I agree 100%. I've used several ascenders, hand, foot, chest, etc., but never without a friction hitch or gri gri back-up (you can always let go of your ahnd ascender to let the gri gri take that impact . Personally, I refuse to use the Ropewalker, Gibbs, or any of the mechanical camming adjustors, because of the simple fact that upon impact, the cam in the Gibbs etc has the possibility of cutting the rope just like the toothed ascenders -- specifically the reason why its stamped right on the device "not for self belay". It was designed for positioning, and not impact. That's precisely the reason why belayers use the Munter Hitch on a HMS biner, and eventually devices like gri gri, reverso, ATC, and now the ID and RIG came out.

I've just recently started using SRT instead of DRT to see what all the hype was about -- its becomming more natural to me, and is definitely easier -- saves energy, and faster.

have you been using the rope wrench?

 

[the Aerialist]

Unicender set up for SRT ...

... I've just recently started using SRT instead of DRT to see what all the hype was about -- its becomming more natural to me, and is definitely easier -- saves energy, and faster.

have you been using the rope wrench?

This was a SRT setup I put together last Winter:

Once the work started coming in I went back to the LockJack out of familiarity. If work slows up this Winter I may put some effort into working with it.

 

[limbwalker54]

Guess that Blake's hitch was too hard to slide on up, eh?

You know I use a VT on a nice little prusik cord with a tending pulley when I prune large trees, and find it very easy to footlock with that system to grab that next dead limb, etc.

FTA, Doesn't it make sense to use all of your muscle groups as a whole for your initial ascent? Why try to avoid a practice that can help, even if you get some foot ascenders you will still be using the same concept of full body motion to get you up that tree. Then tie in proper and get to work on the way down.......

 

[Saw Dust Smoken]

how

How does all that work together? Seem like something gets added to the uni everyday for improvement. Maybe uni needs to redo there product?

 

[the Aerialist]

How does all that work together? Seem like something gets added to the uni everyday for improvement. Maybe uni needs to redo there product?

I added the pulley to advance a CMI rope grab with a stirrup on it while my Pantin on the other foot pulls the rope down. The result is a stair step climbing motion using both legs to walk up the rope, just like climbing a ladder. For those of you with advanced foot locking capabilities you can do away with the pulley, Pantin and stirrup and just shinny up the rope.

As I said though, once work started coming in I went back to my dDrt and LockJack, then added the SpiderJack to my bag of tricks so the DRT project got shelved for the Season.

Here's another variation on using the Unicender with SRT where you could use foot locking, although I used a single Pantin to avoid slipping.

 

[ForTheArborist]

FTA, Doesn't it make sense to use all of your muscle groups as a whole for your initial ascent? Why try to avoid a practice that can help, even if you get some foot ascenders you will still be using the same concept of full body motion to get you up that tree. Then tie in proper and get to work on the way down.......

Body builders......just like to do it the hard way sometimes I guess. :lifter: On the long hauls though, you're right.

 

[ForTheArborist]

Aerialist, that's a compact system you have there. What is the little red guy on your line???

 

[the Aerialist]

Aerialist, that's a compact system you have there. What is the little red guy on your line???

In the photo above the "red guy" is a DIM "revolver" carabiner that I put in there to keep the rope aligned with the Unicender. It keeps the rope from jumping out of the last L shaped restraint. Kind of hard to explain, it just keeps things tidy and running smooth.

The green device on the blue Prussic is a Kong "duck" to adjust the distance from the Unicender, you have to pull on it from below, and the Prussic gives me enough room to get a good pull on it. The way the "duck" is set even if it fails my carabiner is through the prussic loop for backup. I don't trust the "duck" as my main attachment.

 

[ForTheArborist]

In the photo above the "red guy" is a DIM "revolver" carabiner that I put in there to keep the rope aligned with the Unicender. It keeps the rope from jumping out of the last L shaped restraint. Kind of hard to explain, it just keeps things tidy and running smooth.

The green device on the blue Prussic is a Kong "duck" to adjust the distance from the Unicender, you have to pull on it from below, and the Prussic gives me enough room to get a good pull on it. The way the "duck" is set even if it fails my carabiner is through the prussic loop for backup. I don't trust the "duck" as my main attachment.

I'm going to the Sherrill Store now. I'm going to have to clone that system. It must work great, or you wouldn't bother with it.