Extreme lean + heavy on lean side + heart rot . . .

[Gologit]

Shhhhhh. Some Forest Service type will see this thread and will put "Bunny Assist Required" in the contract. On the Sale Area Map it will be BAR and that might could confuse some loggers as to what is out there in the woods.

No, I kinda like the bunny idea. Especially with the Spencer. Give the bunny a little crayon or even a can of paint and he can mark out the buck.

I think Jake is on to something here.
Think of the time it would save.

 

[slowp]

No, I kinda like the bunny idea. Especially with the Spencer. Give the bunny a little crayon or even a can of paint and he can mark out the buck.

I think Jake is on to something here.
Think of the time it would save.

The buck? The bunny would be marking some of the fellow bunnies? :msp_smile:

The color of paint used by bunnies simply has to be pink.

 

[Gologit]

I have been thinking about writing up a document, complete with pictures and explanations, that covers how the different types of cut are intended to manage leaners and barber-chair. There are lots of "how to" documents, but none of them ever go into the physics of why the split occurs and how the various cut work to manage the problem. I have never found one that does an adequate job.

Do you think there would be any interest on the logging forum? I imagine that if it had my name on it, it would be roundly rejected just because I own some lawnmowers.

I know it would fit well in arb 101.

I think that both Dent and Beranek have already covered that subject pretty well. Their explanations are based on a lot of practical experience and they're presented in a form that most people can understand and make good use of.

If you've "never found one that does an adequate job" it's probably because your ideas are faulty and you're trying to come up with something to justify your own methods. I don't see that as being a good idea.

If you want to write a document on trimming or pruning or lawncare there might possibly be a receptive audience somewhere. I don't think the logging forum would be the place for it, though.

One of the reasons that so many people criticize you is that so much of your self proclaimed knowledge is questionable. That becomes very apparent very quickly when you post nonsense.

I know that you mean well and you'd like to contribute something meaningful to these discussions but you just don't have the specific experience, the actual hands-on time, to be telling loggers much of anything at all.

That's not to say that we can't learn or that we're unwilling to look at new techniques. It's just that when we learn we like to get our information from somebody that knows more than we do.

 

[pdqdl]

Well, once again, a negative perception. Who would have thought it?

I never said that super pro's like Beranek had not adequately described methods of dealing with the barber-chair problem. Do you really think that I just pop off nonsense that I haven't learned from others? Go back and read everything I posted, and I will show you prior posts from Beranek himself (oops! Can't post that here, it was at a different forum) that say the same damn thing that I put up at the beginning of this nonsense. Yes, I did take the time to do a complete search on the topic, just 'cause I knew you would be there ready to pounce. Your tendency to assume that I am wrong before you read it is the biggest problem. If you would take your ego out of your ears long enough to understand what I say (or repeat from other sources), you might not form such a negative opinion.

I did not at all indicate that I would be discussing the "how to" aspect of the the problem. I was talking about the physics. Real math, applied using torque, shear forces applied in the wood, stuff like that. It is not good enough for me to know that a tree barber-chairs sometimes when you back cut a leaner. For me, a complete understanding of how something works is necessary to mastering it.

Of course you wouldn't be interested. I didn't really expect that you would, since you already know everything.

 

[pdqdl]

...

One of the reasons that so many people criticize you is that so much of your self proclaimed knowledge is questionable. That becomes very apparent very quickly when you post nonsense.

...

Try to find me posting self-proclaimed knowledge that is questionable. C'mon. Give it your best shot. Quote me from anywhere, any time.

The last time I got into a row with you, we were discussing the merits of eating dirt to control diarrhea. You master logger guys seemed to think it was a good idea.

I suggested that it wasn't a good idea, and showed you lots of parasites that come from eating dirt. I backed it up with documentation from a wide variety of sources, but what the heck. You guys know that eating a couple handfuls of dirt is a whole lot better an idea than taking some imodium to work with you.

In typical fashion, resentment to a new idea from a lawn fairy was very high, and there were quite a bit of unkind remarks pointed in my direction.

Like I said, I have thick skin. If I managed to convince a few loggers that they would be better off if they avoided the risk of catching some nasty parasites by sticking a bottle of Imodium in the truck, then I have made the world a better place.

Go back and study my posts. Track my history at AS, you will find that I am the guy that helps folks with problems. I don't pick fights, and when I get picked on, I don't call names or act badly. I certainly never discredit an argument by attacking the character of the poster, which seems to be your preferred style.

You are a moderator, aren't you? I bet you have had lots of complaints, but never found a reason to even pass along a single reprimand to me. I have every confidence that you are looking for the chance.

 

[slowp]

I thought Imodium came in pill form?

 

[pdqdl]

I thought Imodium came in pill form?

Yep. It does. Usually little tablets impregnated into individual plastic packs on really tough cardboard when you buy them at the convenience store. Sometimes just in bottles, when you buy in larger quantities. Put either of them in a plastic bottle, regardless, just to protect them.

I was always fond of film cannisters, but those are not too common anymore. Stick 'em in the glove box, first aid kit, whatever. Just quit eating dirt because you didn't come prepared.

 

[Gologit]

Try to find me posting self-proclaimed knowledge that is questionable. C'mon. Give it your best shot. Quote me from anywhere, any time.

The last time I got into a row with you, we were discussing the merits of eating dirt to control diarrhea. You master logger guys seemed to think it was a good idea.

I suggested that it wasn't a good idea, and showed you lots of parasites that come from eating dirt. I backed it up with documentation from a wide variety of sources, but what the heck. You guys know that eating a couple handfuls of dirt is a whole lot better an idea than taking some imodium to work with you.

In typical fashion, resentment to a new idea from a lawn fairy was very high, and there were quite a bit of unkind remarks pointed in my direction.

Like I said, I have thick skin. If I managed to convince a few loggers that they would be better off if they avoided the risk of catching some nasty parasites by sticking a bottle of Imodium in the truck, then I have made the world a better place.

Go back and study my posts. Track my history at AS, you will find that I am the guy that helps folks with problems. I don't pick fights, and when I get picked on, I don't call names or act badly. I certainly never discredit an argument by attacking the character of the poster, which seems to be your preferred style.

You are a moderator, aren't you? I bet you have had lots of complaints, but never found a reason to even pass along a single reprimand to me. I have every confidence that you are looking for the chance.

Gosh, does this mean that I'm not on your Christmas card list anymore?

And no, we really haven't had a lot of complaints about you. Everybody is too busy laughing at you to complain much.

It all comes down to the fact that you can talk the talk...but that's all you can do.

 

[tramp bushler]

You guys are interrupting my studying.

 

[rwoods]

I've been at home sick most of the week - thus plenty of time to be on AS. Life is short. I'm tired. So I am moving on. I'll take my hammer with me. Besides it seems the firewood boys are arguing about how much wood is in a cord again. :msp_wink:

No offense intended. Thanks again for the advice and explanations, and thanks especially for putting up with my intrusions. Ron

 

[Gologit]

I've been at home sick most of the week - thus plenty of time to be on AS. Life is short. I'm tired. So I am moving on. I'll take my hammer with me. Besides it seems the firewood boys are arguing about how much wood is in a cord again. :msp_wink:

No offense intended. Thanks again for the advice and explanations, and thanks especially for putting up with my intrusions. Ron

You are never an intrusion.

 

[rwoods]

Thanks. Ron

 

[RandyMac]

Ron, do drop by more often, sane points of view are always welcome.

 

[pdqdl]

...
It all comes down to the fact that you can talk the talk...but that's all you can do.

Well, there you go. Win the argument by insulting your opponent. I issued a you challenge, I see how you respond, too. I expect better from a guy that seems to think he merits respect.

Thanks then, for finally admitting that I am at least "talking the talk". If I am successful at talking the talk, it's because I can and have done the work. Still do it, and continue to get better.

A significant part of that learning improvement is my participation at AS. Please quit trying to ruin that for me. I don't pick at you, you should do the same.

 

[Gologit]

Well, there you go. Win the argument by insulting your opponent. I issued a you challenge, I see how you respond, too. I expect better from a guy that seems to think he merits respect.

Thanks then, for finally admitting that I am at least "talking the talk". If I am successful at talking the talk, it's because I can and have done the work. Still do it, and continue to get better.

A significant part of that learning improvement is my participation at AS. Please quit trying to ruin that for me. I don't pick at you, you should do the same.

Agree to disagree? Sure, why not. There's really no point in arguing with you.

But if you post something idiotic somebody is certain to call you on it. Might be me.

And...I'm not "trying to ruin" anything for you. I offered you a job. A real job where you could learn something that might stand you in good stead. You chose not to take it. I won't bother to ask you again.

And am I still on the Christmas card list...or not?

 

[RandyMac]

 

[TexasTimbers]

It's good to see that most of us big, strong, handsome men (speaking for myself) have enough cultural refinement to be able to sit down together and have a gentlemanly discussion over tea and crumpets, about the finer points of a CB cut. The rest of you troglodytes can get in line so's I can whomp you with a knotted plow line. :msp_lol:

Jokes aside, I appreciate the discussion here and have learned a great deal from the descriptions. I have been a member here quite a while but have not posted much - most of it being in the chainsaw forum. I believe this was my first foray into the F & L forum, though I stand to be corrected.

The most interesting thing I think I have learned from this thread is the various versions of the CB cut. Until I read this thread, I would have said the the "T" with a slight face cut would be "safer" because it appears that it would add stability against any sideways lean. But then it could be argued that if the lean is read properly there shouldn't be enough side lean to matter - or if there were a little then wedging would take care of. When I saw the diagram of the "strip" version I thought to myself that I wouldn't use that if the tree were quite hollow, but then I wouldn't use a CB cut at all if it were hollow - would I?

That was a question gys not a statement. I have felled several thousands of trees over the past 8 years but 95% have been small by logging standards. Of those 95%, probably 80% of those have been flame boxelder trees less than 80' tall and most less than 60' tall with DBH of 16" to 34". But virtually all of them have lean of varying degree. They simply do not grow very straight in the patch where I harvest them. So while I have a lot of experience dropping leaners and am comfortable (not "reckless" comfortable) doing so, they are relatively small. What makes them dangerous is that as they start getting past the 28ish" DBH they tend to get real punky at least if not downright hollow all the way from the first forks to the stump, so I have dealt with numerous barber chairs with this species. I wrap the bigger ones with chain but the smaller ones I read the lean carefully and use a long bar to cut the holding wood. I've had quite some unforeseen close calls logging as we all have but never with a barber chair. Knock on wood I've never been caught off guard from one that I hadn't already thought "this one might barber on me". On the larger ones I do wrap them.

All that said, my question now is given the scenario of a ~34" tree with significant lean, significant heart rot, but with the lean easy to read accurately (all these FBE trees are easy to read the lean), what is the proper cut for this situation. I guess that would start a controversy let me rephrase the question, what cut would you use in this scenario. I *do* realize there are many other factors to consider when falling a tree, but with this basic info as a starting point what cut would you think you'd consider first?

 

[pdqdl]

Sure. We're good.

Should I ever post anything idiotic, please let me have it with both barrels. Just make sure that what I post is truly idiotic, not misinterpreted due to the cloud of disrespect that surrounds you.

Regarding working for you, that's ok. You see, I already have a job; I work for me. If I wanted to be a west coast logger, I would already be there. If I was to ever have worked for you, I have no doubt that we would have gotten along fine. But then, I wouldn't have been the lawn fairy under those circumstances, would I?

BTW: what is this about a real job? Are the only real jobs to be had working for west coast lumber barons? I guess all the arborists and climbers over in the Commercial Tree care forum are going to be sorely disappointed to find that they don't have real jobs. The Milling and Sawmill guys will be crushed too, and god help us down in the Business forum. Us poor business owners have nothing to look forward to now that you tipped us off that we don't have a real job.

 

[RandyMac]

For having a thick hide, you seem to have scratched a festering hole going after a little thorn.

 

[pdqdl]

...

That was a question gys not a statement. I have felled several thousands of trees over the past 8 years but 95% have been small by logging standards...

All that said, my question now is given the scenario of a ~34" tree with significant lean, significant heart rot, but with the lean easy to read accurately (all these FBE trees are easy to read the lean), what is the proper cut for this situation. I guess that would start a controversy let me rephrase the question, what cut would you use in this scenario. I *do* realize there are many other factors to consider when falling a tree, but with this basic info as a starting point what cut would you think you'd consider first?

I didn't think anybody harvested boxelders. I thought they were worthless. You probably know more about cutting those particular trees than anybody else in this forum.

Most of the trees I see for removal are somewhat rotten or dead, and that includes a fair amount of boxelders. 34" would be a big boxelder in our area; they don't generally get that big in KC. That being said, I am not ever attempting to save any of the wood, nor do I usually have the privilege of simply dropping the tree. We usually climb and piece it out due to obstructions.

When I get a dead or rotten leaner, and it can be simply dropped, I just about always cut the bottom out from under it with a deep face cut. The deeper, the better. Keep cutting until the gap begins to close or you make it to the halfway point. Further if you feel comfortable with it. Then just back cut it; watch it fall. As Gologit would want me to point out, that won't always work, and might turn out badly.