I call B.S. on Stihl. My dyno doesn't lie. MS 461 is king over MS 660

[Deets066]

No naysaying here just stating my opinion, which is why we are all here right? Great findings and like I said before I would like to see more! Thanks

 

[chadihman]

I've read the whole thing and no one is saying he can't or he shouldn't. Why would the kid want to quit posting here? There's plenty of interest from the right crowd. Either he has a superb cherry MS461, a wounded duck MS660 Magnum, both or a faulty process. There's no nay saying in it. Don't act like a bunch of chicks.

Last I knew I was 32, married with two young kids and work a full time job pulling wrenches. Why am I a kid? I tested two 660's against my 461 and the 461 won on both at the rated hp rpm. A few others stated a 461 beats a 660.

 

[Brush Ape]

Yeah it's not Stihl bashing or inventor bashing. We always want to make them run better. I have lots of 70cc class Stihls that out run average 90cc class saws. I'm sure it can happen.

But we're from the woods and now we are on the internet. If you call BS on our favorite saw, get your ducks in a row first and brace yourself. That's all.

 

[chadihman]

I know there's more guys out there with a 461 and a 660. Lets see some timed cuts. Maybe I tested two lemon 660's but I doubt it.

 

[Brush Ape]

Last I knew I was 32, married with two young kids and work a full time job pulling wrenches. Why am I a kid?

Because I was doing all those things when you was daydreaming in shop class.

 

[chadihman]

I'm braced and my ducks are in a row. Now what?

 

[Brush Ape]

I'm braced and my ducks are in a row. Now what?

Never give up.

 

[sawfun]

Don't let the jokers and jerks diswade you. This is a great thread with excellent information. Thank you for your effort and work. There seems to be no end of armchair wannabes that spout paper specs but haven't actually done much in the area of conversation themselves. Almost any idiot can look at a web page and think they now really know something in depth on the subject. Reading and real work experience are significantly different.

 

[chadihman]

Couldn't be further from the truth. What percentages are you running on your load? Does the load cell have the same geometry relationship on both saws? 1/64ths" count big time. What was the start compression and post break in? Has it peaked yet? Owning a dyno is one thing, having the years of expertise and knowledge on how to operate and interprete data is another. specifically with saws and two stroke power curves. Not any other engine. I'm not saying this is impossible, but it surely is something to look into more.

Stijl uses an Eddie Currant

I'm going to assume you havent seen any of my build threads or the video of my dyno working. I have the torque #'s from 10,000-6500 rpms on both saws. I calculate the hp at every 500 rpm increment. I can tell you all about torque and Hp from 6500-10000 rpms. Now tell me how I don't know how to interpret data. Not getting pre break in compression is my only regret.

 

[MustangMike]

Chad, I'll be 62 in August and I've done lots of things, BUT I HAVE NEVER BUILT A DYNO!

More power to you, and keep up the good work.

 

[treesmith]

Osage Orange, Maclura pomifera 2760lbf; hard enough to compare with anything still legal to cut.

Sorry for derail

Just for comparison, these janka scale(hardness) figure are taken from several woodfloor supply companies so comparable to standing dead trees, a very common reason to cut it down

American

Osage orange - 2760 lbf
Hickory - 1820 lbf
Hard maple - 1450 lbf
White oak - 1360 lbf
Beech - 1300 lbf
Red oak - 1290 lbf
Black walnut 1010 lbf
Gum - 850 lbf
Elm - 830 lbf
Cypress - 690 lbf
Cottonwood - 430 lbf

English

Yew - 1600
English oak - 1400

Aussie

Grey ironbark - 3750 lbf
Grey box - 3370 lbf
Ironbark - 3150 lbf
Grey gum - 3150 lbf
Red mahogany - 2700 lbf
Spotted gum - 2470 lbf
Sydney blue gum 2030 lbf

Aussie cypress 1370 lbf - harder than US oak 1360 lbf

These are just a few, the small garden trees are the same, dense heavy and really hard. I've noticed European ash is harder here too

 

[MCW]

Time is not on our side and I can tell you now 100% for real if the 046/461 out cut an aussie 066/660 in the HAND we would be using them the end! ....BUT as it stands in real world hardwood the aussie 660 gets the job done without men standing about doing nothing waiting, an aussie 660 keeps the young lads running! lol...
And as far as stock saw's go we only use stock saw's for work....One or two 660/066 Ive brought home and hit with a dremel Yes true I was a mastermind wannabe for a bit there LOL..And from that I got nothing to jump up and down about with the use of a dremel ...

And yeah to us (at my work and my part of the world north east QLD) a 660 is not a big or heavy saw it's definitely one of the lighter things you will pick up in a working day around here LOL....
And yes I agree Stihl has choked their 90cc saw hard in the USA with the EPA crap to the point an EPA ms660 is on-par power wise to an old 038 mag I guess .... And yeah the Aussie ms660 still cranks out the hp it was designed to as we don't have the full wrath of the EPA here yet.....Cheers just my 2c ..........

I know a couple of full time firewood cutters who bought 461's thinking they could get the same grunt and save a bit of weight over their 660's (Australian delivered dual ports). They were very disappointed and have gone back to their 660's. The 461's are a good saw, no doubt about it, but to say they'll beat a stock 660 means they'll also beat a stock 385XP and 390XP. That's a big call in my book. I'm not doubting the dyno results, but I think real world testing will show a different scenario.
Personally I'm not the world's biggest 660 fan but they are tough saws.

 

[one.man.band]

Chad, I commend you on going through the trouble to provide solid data like this to us. I hate that there are so many truly negative naysayers on here. I can't say I'd blame you if you decided to just quit posting any of your findings, but I do hope you can see through the negative comments and understand that many here appreciate what you do so much. Reminds me of an old saying, "those who can, do. Those that can't, teach". You are definitely one who can do - not some armchair scholar.

My personal constructive criticism would be that what you have is a somewhat single set of data points, and I don't think you would argue with that. There are many variables at play here, and some have been mentioned. You could have a really well running 461, a 660 that isn't broken in, and possibly some other things along those same lines going on. It could also be that your findings may be average for stock versus stock. Regardless, your findings are significant in my eyes and many others. I am anxious to see what you find with more testing, modding, etc. - and you seem to be a real straight shooter - so I know you will report whatever you find.

I wish I could afford to send you 3 new 461s and 3 new 660s for testing/comparisons. Although I know it would still happen, it would be difficult for some of the naysayers to argue with those kinds of averages IF they turned out in favor of the 461.

Keep up the good work, buddy........

Waylan

+1

 

[one.man.band]

Don't let the jokers and jerks diswade you. This is a great thread with excellent information. Thank you for your effort and work. There seems to be no end of armchair wannabes that spout paper specs but haven't actually done much in the area of conversation themselves. Almost any idiot can look at a web page and think they now really know something in depth on the subject. Reading and real work experience are significantly different.

+1

 

[mdavlee]

I know a couple of full time firewood cutters who bought 461's thinking they could get the same grunt and save a bit of weight over their 660's (Australian delivered dual ports). They were very disappointed and have gone back to their 660's. The 461's are a good saw, no doubt about it, but to say they'll beat a stock 660 means they'll also beat a stock 385XP and 390XP. That's a big call in my book. I'm not doubting the dyno results, but I think real world testing will show a different scenario.
Personally I'm not the world's biggest 660 fan but they are tough saws.

Matt over here with softer woods and shorter bars there's no real difference in stump power with a 24". You're just carrying a gas guzzling pig in the 660. It does have the good caps though. I was thoroughly impressed with a MM ported 461 when I got to run them.

 

[MCW]

Matt over here with softer woods and shorter bars there's no real difference in stump power with a 24". You're just carrying a gas guzzling pig in the 660. It does have the good caps though. I was thoroughly impressed with a MM ported 461 when I got to run them.

I agree but these saws are used under a whole heap of different scenarios so I'm pitching in with some real world feedback from guys who use these things as tools for production, nothing more. If the 461 was indeed better than the 660 under real work scenarios I'd have expected the 660 to have been abandoned by fallers everywhere as the 461 has been out a while now. Personally I'd buy a 461 over a 660 anyday.
If a 461 can beat a 660 in softwood, it will also beat it in hardwood. Torque is torque and if these dyno readings are correct then a 461 should beat a 660 from an 18" bar to a 72" bar in any wood.

 

[chadihman]

I'm sorry I bashed the beloved 660 so bad. I do believe that the 660 has its place. Its a bigger tougher saw period. It may lack power but it gains over the 461 at 7500 rpms and below. The 660 should be a little more resistant to bogging. At 7000 rpms the 660 had almost 4% more power. Saws don't see much 7000 rpm work but it will help with a big bar.

 

[one.man.band]

don't think anyone is doubting the sincerity or integrity of chad's work, including me.

some of you have been around a dyno, some have not. calling b.s. on stihl and dlg based on a single dyno run is a bold statement, imo.

for those that have been around a dyno realize that 3 to 5 consecutive runs can produce results can vary -10% to +10% between runs on the same motor.

don't know what chad's numbers are, since he did not post them up, other than %'s.

maybe these numbers may help you for baseline numbers (taken from kwf and dlg), for each saw:

ms461:
4.4 kW (5.9 HP) @ 9750 rpm
5.0 kW (3.7 lb-ft) @ 7500 rpm

066:
5.2 kW (7.0 HP) @ 9500 rpm
6.0 kW (4.4 lb-ft) @ 6000 rpm

questions of the how the testing method was performed may shed some light on the differences between the results.

most of us are grown men here. amazes me sometimes of wordsmiths on here, who comment on things that they know so little about.

-omb

 

[chadihman]

ms461:
4.4 kW (5.9 HP) @ 9750 rpm
5.0 kW (3.7 lb-ft) @ 7500 rpm

066:
5.2 kW (7.0 HP) @ 9500 rpm
6.0 kW (4.4 lb-ft) @ 6000 rpm

I got 9.32 lb- ft at 7500 rpms on my 461?
I got 9.67 lb-ft at 6500 rpms on the 660?

-omb

 

[KG441c]

I would love to know the output on a ported 461 compared to the stock 660. I was told by a top porter that a properly ported 461 would smoke a stock 660