Octane question

[bwalker]

So what are the percentages of xylenes and toluene in gasoline you produce? I'll have to dig out old GC/MS chromatograms to give you real numbers. And I'll add, there still is detectable amounts of benzene.

Ethanol/oxygenated fuels were primarily introduced to reduce emissions (remember MTBE? a carcinogen that got in ground water from spills), not to boost octane. In fact it is not economical to obtain ethanol from corn without government subsidies. If the government subsidies were cut off, E10 would disappear.

Farmland should be used to grow food for people and animals. Part of the cost of food is directly related to the use of farmland/food crops for E10.

I provided numbers in my previous post. Keep in mind the results you saw years ago are not indicative to what's going on today. There has been a steady decline in aromatic levels for the past 20 years.
MTBE was never proven to be a carcinogen. It's problem was it had a very distinct taste that was a problem when it ended up in ground water via leaky tankage. In many respects its a much better oxygenate than ethanol. And you are right oxygenates like ethanol did not come to be based on raising octane, but they are high octane streams and they do allow refiners to blend in lower quality streams as a result. This is part of the reason we have seen a decline in pump fuel quality for the last few decades. And I completely agree with you on ethanol. It's a huge scam that funnels money to the corn states. It's not economical, it's not environmentally friendly on a carbon basis and it has many downsides performance wise. MTBE and ETBE were much better oxygenates.

 

[bwalker]

I switched to Avgas a few years ago for all my 2-cycle tools. Zero problems since with gummed up carburetors and cracked plastic fuel lines. Some things sit for months and start with a couple pulls. Ethanol fuel used to result in a lot of clogged carburetors. Never will use ethanol fuel again.

Av gas will do that. It will also dose you with lead every time you run it...

 

[HansFranz]

Ethanol/oxygenated fuels were primarily introduced to reduce emissions (remember MTBE?

I thought ethanol was put in to raise octane after the MTBE (that was used to boost octane after lead was banned) was banned.

 

[bwalker]

I thought ethanol was put in to raise octane after the MTBE (that was used to boost octane after lead was banned) was banned.

It was used in low levels by some refiners starting in 1979 to help boost octane. It was not widely used in high levels until after the 1990 ammendments to the clean air act. It's purpose at this time was as an oxygenate, not an octane booster.
Leaded gas wasn't completely phased out until 1996. The lead content started to decline in the early 70's, started to be phased out by 1975 and was completely gone by 1996. However, most of the gasoline pool was lead free by the mid to late 80's. So MTBE increased usage came about well after lead was gone.
MTBE was phased out as an oxygenate and was gone by 2006. Ethanol started to be phased in well before this, but really started to be used in bulk due to the 2005 Renewable Fuel Standard.

And that's a history on gasoline from 1970 to present,lol.

 

[Mad Professor]

I provided numbers in my previous post. Keep in mind the results you saw years ago are not indicative to what's going on today. There has been a steady decline in aromatic levels for the past 20 years.
MTBE was never proven to be a carcinogen. It's problem was it had a very distinct taste that was a problem when it ended up in ground water via leaky tankage. In many respects its a much better oxygenate than ethanol. And you are right oxygenates like ethanol did not come to be based on raising octane, but they are high octane streams and they do allow refiners to blend in lower quality streams as a result. This is part of the reason we have seen a decline in pump fuel quality for the last few decades. And I completely agree with you on ethanol. It's a huge scam that funnels money to the corn states. It's not economical, it's not environmentally friendly on a carbon basis and it has many downsides performance wise. MTBE and ETBE were much better oxygenates.

EPA has been sitting on this for years now.

"EPA Draft Says MTBE a 'Likely' Cause of Cancer​

WASHINGTON, July 11 — A EPA draft risk assessment says MTBE, the gasoline additive that has contaminated drinking water in at least 29 states, is a "likely" human carcinogen, according to agency sources.
An EPA official who reviewed an earlier version of the document told Environmental Working Group (EWG) that the risk assessment's most notable finding for the first time links MTBE to cancers such as leukemia and lymphoma, with toxicological endpoints similar to known carcinogens such as benzene and butadiene. Previously, EPA had classified MTBE as a "possible" cause of cancer, and concerns about contamination centered on the fact that in small doses its foul stench renders water undrinkable.

The EPA official said the document's authors completed their draft more than a year ago. It has been circulating within the agency for review and has already been approved by the Office of Research and Development's National Center for Environmental Assessment. Once all EPA divisions have signed off on it, it must still go through external review.
"People have been trying to get this out of the agency forever," said the official.
If approved, the finding will rock the current debate in Congress over whether the oil companies who make and use MTBE should be held responsible for cleaning up drinking water contaminated by the chemical leaking from underground gasoline storage tanks. According to state water agencies' records compiled by EWG, MTBE has been detected in more than 1,800 water systems across the country."

This part reminds me of the deal the clot shot makers got from the government:

"The House has passed an energy bill, pushed by Majority Leader Tom DeLay of Texas, that would bar communities and water systems from suing MTBE makers for knowingly manufacturing and distributing a defective product — even though documents from two California lawsuits show the oil industry knew as early as 1979 that the compound was a threat to water supplies but still pushed for its use as a gasoline additive to make fuel burn cleaner."

 

[Mad Professor]

I provided numbers in my previous post. Keep in mind the results you saw years ago are not indicative to what's going on today. There has been a steady decline in aromatic levels for the past 20 years.
MTBE was never proven to be a carcinogen. It's problem was it had a very distinct taste that was a problem when it ended up in ground water via leaky tankage. In many respects its a much better oxygenate than ethanol. And you are right oxygenates like ethanol did not come to be based on raising octane, but they are high octane streams and they do allow refiners to blend in lower quality streams as a result. This is part of the reason we have seen a decline in pump fuel quality for the last few decades. And I completely agree with you on ethanol. It's a huge scam that funnels money to the corn states. It's not economical, it's not environmentally friendly on a carbon basis and it has many downsides performance wise. MTBE and ETBE were much better oxygenates.

You only gave a number for benzene, not aromatics which are a broad class of hydrocarbons found in fuels.

MBTE is an ether. Storage of ethers results in the formation of peroxides which are explosive.

If there is so much MBTE in groundwater you can taste it, there is a serious contamination problem.

 

[Mad Professor]

I thought ethanol was put in to raise octane after the MTBE (that was used to boost octane after lead was banned) was banned.It was added as an oxygen

It was added as an oxygenate to reduce emissions, after MTBE was found to contaminating ground water from spills/leaks.

 

[bwalker]

So what are the percentages of xylenes and toluene in gasoline you produce? I'll have to dig out old GC/MS chromatograms to give you real numbers. And I'll add, there still is detectable amounts of benzene.

Ethanol/oxygenated fuels were primarily introduced to reduce emissions (remember MTBE? a carcinogen that got in ground water from spills), not to boost octane. In fact it is not economical to obtain ethanol from corn without government subsidies. If the government subsidies were cut off, E10 would disappear.

Farmland should be used to grow food for people and animals. Part of the cost of food is directly related to the use of farmland/food crops for E10.

See post #300.
Your old numbers from years ago are no longer indicative of what in gasoline now..

EPA has been sitting on this for years now.

"EPA Draft Says MTBE a 'Likely' Cause of Cancer​

WASHINGTON, July 11 — A EPA draft risk assessment says MTBE, the gasoline additive that has contaminated drinking water in at least 29 states, is a "likely" human carcinogen, according to agency sources.
An EPA official who reviewed an earlier version of the document told Environmental Working Group (EWG) that the risk assessment's most notable finding for the first time links MTBE to cancers such as leukemia and lymphoma, with toxicological endpoints similar to known carcinogens such as benzene and butadiene. Previously, EPA had classified MTBE as a "possible" cause of cancer, and concerns about contamination centered on the fact that in small doses its foul stench renders water undrinkable.

The EPA official said the document's authors completed their draft more than a year ago. It has been circulating within the agency for review and has already been approved by the Office of Research and Development's National Center for Environmental Assessment. Once all EPA divisions have signed off on it, it must still go through external review.
"People have been trying to get this out of the agency forever," said the official.
If approved, the finding will rock the current debate in Congress over whether the oil companies who make and use MTBE should be held responsible for cleaning up drinking water contaminated by the chemical leaking from underground gasoline storage tanks. According to state water agencies' records compiled by EWG, MTBE has been detected in more than 1,800 water systems across the country."

This part reminds me of the deal the clot shot makers got from the government:

"The House has passed an energy bill, pushed by Majority Leader Tom DeLay of Texas, that would bar communities and water systems from suing MTBE makers for knowingly manufacturing and distributing a defective product — even though documents from two California lawsuits show the oil industry knew as early as 1979 that the compound was a threat to water supplies but still pushed for its use as a gasoline additive to make fuel burn cleaner."

It's never been conclusively linked to causing cancer in humans. My statement was accurate.

 

[bwalker]

You only gave a number for benzene, not aromatics which are a broad class of hydrocarbons found in fuels.

MBTE is an ether. Storage of ethers results in the formation of peroxides which are explosive.

If there is so much MBTE in groundwater you can taste it, there is a serious contamination problem.

See post #300.

The light hydrocarbons found in gasoline are all explosive.

The problem is MTBE can be tasted and smelled at really low levels.

 

[Mad Professor]

See post #300.
Your old numbers from years ago are no longer indicative of what in gasoline now..

You have not posted any percentages, do you even have them?

It's still about 20% aromatics circa 12016. Has not changed much since 2010 ~ 20%. Are you saying aromatics are now 10%? What are percentages of those components?



Do you have ANY training in Chemistry? Chemical Engineering?

It's never been conclusively linked to causing cancer in humans. My statement was accurate.

Neither was asbestos. How many years did they sit on that and tobacco?

The studies are there, they are sitting on them. Why? My statement was accurate. MBTE has been shown to be a carcinogen and tetragen in animals.

 

[Mad Professor]

See post #300.

The light hydrocarbons found in gasoline are all explosive.

Do you know what a peroxide is? Chemical properties and reactivity are much different than hydrocarbons. They do not need heat spark nor flame to explode.

The problem is MTBE can be tasted and smelled at really low levels.

Point being? So can flatulence.

 

[Joseph W Santora]

Where are you located?

Airports here have not replaced 100LL with unleaded yet.

Colorado . MOGAS is not a replacement for 100LL in aircraft. It's an alternative for certain engines that are certified to be able to run on MOGAS

 

[Smitty Smithsonite]

Yeah, BAD idea putting MoGas in your 1945 Luscombe! You'll be landing preferably in a farm, but possibly on a highway, river, lake, or a house when the valves beat the **** out of themselves and their seats. Very VERY small percentage of aircraft running MoGas as of right now. Most are in the experimental class.

I've run just about every kind of gasoline available at one point or another, and have worked on the same. Leaded fuel leaves a grayish-whitish ashy layer on EVERYTHING - piston crown, cylinder head, exhaust port if 2-stroke - intake AND exhaust valves on 4-stroke, and in the exhaust system (little muffler on a saw, or a whole system on a car, motorcycle, or off-road machine). Eventually this can foul plugs. That's why for aviation applications they sell TCP. It does a very good job at cleaning all these deposits up. If you run 100LL long enough, things will require cleaning.



As far as the health aspects of lead ... mercury ... or [insert scaaary chemical HERE], you should fear your genetics more than ANYTHING you might come in contact with throughout your life.

My mom never drank, never smoked, jogged around the neighborhood every chance she got, and never EVER bought soda or sugary snacks, much to my chagrin as a kid. She went to the doctor for EVERY little tiny thing. She was afraid of EVERYTHING - said sugar caused cancer. Said margarine cause cancer. Eggs give you heart attacks. She did everything "right", and died at 72. Genetics.

My dad passed mercury the teacher poured into his hand around the classroom when he was a kid. He rolled it around in his hand for a minute or so, marveling at its properties like every kid in that class did. After he dropped out of high school, he was in the Navy breathing in leaded fuel all day every day on the flight deck of the USS Constellation, worked with my grandfather with the door closed in the winter in their homebuilt garage on his cars and the Model T's and others of that era my grandpa used to restore, dunking parts with bare hands in gasoline, heating oil, MEK, or whatever chemical they had on hand that WORKED - no gloves, no masks - those were for *******! No EPA in those days!! He worked at Norton Company in Worcester, MA where abrasive dust clouds were breathed in for 30 years straight, plus, he chain-smoked cigarettes for 54 years straight after Red Cross "relief cigarettes" got him hooked during cleanup of the tornado of 1955 that rolled through his home town east of Worcester ... and he's still alive today. His 82nd birthday is this weekend.

My grandfather lived to 85, only because he refused treatment for the giant cancerous tumor that bulged out of his neck towards the end of his life. He said the chemo, "...was worse than the cancer!" He didn't get lung cancer from breathing in asbestos brake and clutch dust, leaded paint (and gasoline) fumes & dust for decades, nor the radioactive substances he handled that were unregulated in his youth, he didn't get skin or bone cancer from being up to his elbows in all kinds petroleum products for 7 decades of his life, and he didn't poison his family to an early grave dumping stale LEADED gas and used motor oil 100' away from his well (my grandma lived to 91) (and never mind the stuff they BURNED in those days!) - he got a random cancerous tumor on his NECK that was detected early, but after one round of chemo, he quit.

To contrast that, you'll see people who started smoking in high school, and are talking through a "talk box" at age 23. Or someone who handled asbestos insulation for a half hour in their 20's, and end up with mesothelioma in their 40's. It's all genetics - some things will get ya if your body is so inclined.

I'm either going to die at 71 or 72 like my maternal grandfather or my mom, OR, I'll live to my mid 80's like my paternal grandpa and my dad. Not going to sit here and worry about which one it'll be. I just live life when I can afford to, since at the end of the day, no matter what you THINK might kill you doesn't matter in the slightest. It's your GENETICS that WILL kill you.

That's why this guy that's petrified of heights flies paramotors. I'm 100x more likely to die of an asthma or heart attack, or choking on food thanks to 5 decades of asthma medication side-effects.



Here's a fun video I shot this summer. Enjoy!

 

[bwalker]

You have not posted any percentages, do you even have them?



It's still about 20% aromatics circa 12016. Has not changed much since 2010 ~ 20%. Are you saying aromatics are now 10%? What are percentages of those components?







Do you have ANY training in Chemistry? Chemical Engineering?





Neither was asbestos. How many years did they sit on that and tobacco?



The studies are there, they are sitting on them. Why? My statement was accurate. MBTE has been shown to be a carcinogen and tetragen in animals.

You have not posted any percentages, do you even have them?

It's still about 20% aromatics circa 12016. Has not changed much since 2010 ~ 20%. Are you saying aromatics are now 10%? What are percentages of those components?

View attachment 1051579

Do you have ANY training in Chemistry? Chemical Engineering?


Neither was asbestos. How many years did they sit on that and tobacco?

The studies are there, they are sitting on them. Why? My statement was accurate. MBTE has been shown to be a carcinogen and tetragen in animals.

That's exactly what I am saying. A lot has happened in 7 years in the industry.
I've had plenty of industry specific Chem training, took organic and inorganic in college and have a BS. What sort of training in oil refining do you have?
In regards to MTBE. So what your saying is the EPA conspired with the oil industry to keep MTBE from being listed as a known carcinogen?

 

[bwalker]

Yeah, BAD idea putting MoGas in your 1945 Luscombe! You'll be landing preferably in a farm, but possibly on a highway, river, lake, or a house when the valves beat the **** out of themselves and their seats. Very VERY small percentage of aircraft running MoGas as of right now. Most are in the experimental class.

I've run just about every kind of gasoline available at one point or another, and have worked on the same. Leaded fuel leaves a grayish-whitish ashy layer on EVERYTHING - piston crown, cylinder head, exhaust port if 2-stroke - intake AND exhaust valves on 4-stroke, and in the exhaust system (little muffler on a saw, or a whole system on a car, motorcycle, or off-road machine). Eventually this can foul plugs. That's why for aviation applications they sell TCP. It does a very good job at cleaning all these deposits up. If you run 100LL long enough, things will require cleaning.



As far as the health aspects of lead ... mercury ... or [insert scaaary chemical HERE], you should fear your genetics more than ANYTHING you might come in contact with throughout your life.

My mom never drank, never smoked, jogged around the neighborhood every chance she got, and never EVER bought soda or sugary snacks, much to my chagrin as a kid. She went to the doctor for EVERY little tiny thing. She was afraid of EVERYTHING - said sugar caused cancer. Said margarine cause cancer. Eggs give you heart attacks. She did everything "right", and died at 72. Genetics.

My dad passed mercury the teacher poured into his hand around the classroom when he was a kid. He rolled it around in his hand for a minute or so, marveling at its properties like every kid in that class did. After he dropped out of high school, he was in the Navy breathing in leaded fuel all day every day on the flight deck of the USS Constellation, worked with my grandfather with the door closed in the winter in their homebuilt garage on his cars and the Model T's and others of that era my grandpa used to restore, dunking parts with bare hands in gasoline, heating oil, MEK, or whatever chemical they had on hand that WORKED - no gloves, no masks - those were for *******! No EPA in those days!! He worked at Norton Company in Worcester, MA where abrasive dust clouds were breathed in for 30 years straight, plus, he chain-smoked cigarettes for 54 years straight after Red Cross "relief cigarettes" got him hooked during cleanup of the tornado of 1955 that rolled through his home town east of Worcester ... and he's still alive today. His 82nd birthday is this weekend.

My grandfather lived to 85, only because he refused treatment for the giant cancerous tumor that bulged out of his neck towards the end of his life. He said the chemo, "...was worse than the cancer!" He didn't get lung cancer from breathing in asbestos brake and clutch dust, leaded paint (and gasoline) fumes & dust for decades, nor the radioactive substances he handled that were unregulated in his youth, he didn't get skin or bone cancer from being up to his elbows in all kinds petroleum products for 7 decades of his life, and he didn't poison his family to an early grave dumping stale LEADED gas and used motor oil 100' away from his well (my grandma lived to 91) (and never mind the stuff they BURNED in those days!) - he got a random cancerous tumor on his NECK that was detected early, but after one round of chemo, he quit.

To contrast that, you'll see people who started smoking in high school, and are talking through a "talk box" at age 23. Or someone who handled asbestos insulation for a half hour in their 20's, and end up with mesothelioma in their 40's. It's all genetics - some things will get ya if your body is so inclined.

I'm either going to die at 71 or 72 like my maternal grandfather or my mom, OR, I'll live to my mid 80's like my paternal grandpa and my dad. Not going to sit here and worry about which one it'll be. I just live life when I can afford to, since at the end of the day, no matter what you THINK might kill you doesn't matter in the slightest. It's your GENETICS that WILL kill you.

That's why this guy that's petrified of heights flies paramotors. I'm 100x more likely to die of an asthma or heart attack, or choking on food thanks to 5 decades of asthma medication side-effects.

View attachment 1051595

Here's a fun video I shot this summer. Enjoy!

You can't do much about genetics. You can choose not to expose your self to toxic substances for no good reason...

 

[bwalker]

Do you know what a peroxide is? Chemical properties and reactivity are much different than hydrocarbons. They do not need heat spark nor flame to explode.


Point being? So can flatulence.

MTBE units blowing up wasnt an issue....

The point is the EPA got after MTBE because people complained of the taste and smell. This is mentioned right on the EPA's website btw.

 

[Mad Professor]

That's exactly what I am saying. A lot has happened in 7 years in the industry.
I've had plenty of industry specific Chem training, took organic and inorganic in college and have a BS. What sort of training o. Oil refining do you have?
In regards to MTBE. So what your saying is the EPA conspired with the oil industry to keep MTBE from being listed as a known carcinogen?

I taught college chemistry and have experience in difficult separations of complex mixtures organic compounds. That science forms the basis for your refining.

And yes, the EPA is corrupted. They let General Electric off the hook for their PCB contamination which is still an ongoing sham. Currently they propose making an unlined PCB dump over an aquifier, to save GE money.

One of the EPA shills negotiated one of the clandestine settlements with GE, then quit and was rewarded with a no show job with GE. His name was Devillars, look it up.

 

[Mad Professor]

MTBE units blowing up wasnt an issue....

The point is the EPA got after MTBE because people complained of the taste and smell. This is mentioned right on the EPA's website btw.

They went after MBTE because of leaking storage tanks at filling stations and aquifer contamination. Not because people smelled the crap in their tap water, although they might have smelled it, given the levels of pollution

BTW, the CDC has a website too. Lots of stuff about a "safe and effective" vaccine.....

 

[sean donato]

How much i$ canned fuel$?

Around $21.00 something a gal if you buy 4 gallons at lowes the other day for Tru fuel. $23 and change for 1 gallon.

It's also known as UL91. Not widely available and I have never seen it.
The problem is aviation piston engines are very old technology wise and it's a royal pain to get anything new certified. It's even more of a pain to get old engines certified to run on unleaded fuels. As a result very few aviation motors are certified to run on unleaded fuels even though most don't need the lead or the octane level.

There was talk a while back about some sort of new lead free avgas that was in the testing phase. I didn't keep up with its progress.

I have to give you some chit @sean donato .. it's Alkylate. Alkyd refers to paint!

You knew what I meant.

Yeah, BAD idea putting MoGas in your 1945 Luscombe! You'll be landing preferably in a farm, but possibly on a highway, river, lake, or a house when the valves beat the **** out of themselves and their seats. Very VERY small percentage of aircraft running MoGas as of right now. Most are in the experimental class.

I've run just about every kind of gasoline available at one point or another, and have worked on the same. Leaded fuel leaves a grayish-whitish ashy layer on EVERYTHING - piston crown, cylinder head, exhaust port if 2-stroke - intake AND exhaust valves on 4-stroke, and in the exhaust system (little muffler on a saw, or a whole system on a car, motorcycle, or off-road machine). Eventually this can foul plugs. That's why for aviation applications they sell TCP. It does a very good job at cleaning all these deposits up. If you run 100LL long enough, things will require cleaning.



As far as the health aspects of lead ... mercury ... or [insert scaaary chemical HERE], you should fear your genetics more than ANYTHING you might come in contact with throughout your life.

My mom never drank, never smoked, jogged around the neighborhood every chance she got, and never EVER bought soda or sugary snacks, much to my chagrin as a kid. She went to the doctor for EVERY little tiny thing. She was afraid of EVERYTHING - said sugar caused cancer. Said margarine cause cancer. Eggs give you heart attacks. She did everything "right", and died at 72. Genetics.

My dad passed mercury the teacher poured into his hand around the classroom when he was a kid. He rolled it around in his hand for a minute or so, marveling at its properties like every kid in that class did. After he dropped out of high school, he was in the Navy breathing in leaded fuel all day every day on the flight deck of the USS Constellation, worked with my grandfather with the door closed in the winter in their homebuilt garage on his cars and the Model T's and others of that era my grandpa used to restore, dunking parts with bare hands in gasoline, heating oil, MEK, or whatever chemical they had on hand that WORKED - no gloves, no masks - those were for *******! No EPA in those days!! He worked at Norton Company in Worcester, MA where abrasive dust clouds were breathed in for 30 years straight, plus, he chain-smoked cigarettes for 54 years straight after Red Cross "relief cigarettes" got him hooked during cleanup of the tornado of 1955 that rolled through his home town east of Worcester ... and he's still alive today. His 82nd birthday is this weekend.

My grandfather lived to 85, only because he refused treatment for the giant cancerous tumor that bulged out of his neck towards the end of his life. He said the chemo, "...was worse than the cancer!" He didn't get lung cancer from breathing in asbestos brake and clutch dust, leaded paint (and gasoline) fumes & dust for decades, nor the radioactive substances he handled that were unregulated in his youth, he didn't get skin or bone cancer from being up to his elbows in all kinds petroleum products for 7 decades of his life, and he didn't poison his family to an early grave dumping stale LEADED gas and used motor oil 100' away from his well (my grandma lived to 91) (and never mind the stuff they BURNED in those days!) - he got a random cancerous tumor on his NECK that was detected early, but after one round of chemo, he quit.

To contrast that, you'll see people who started smoking in high school, and are talking through a "talk box" at age 23. Or someone who handled asbestos insulation for a half hour in their 20's, and end up with mesothelioma in their 40's. It's all genetics - some things will get ya if your body is so inclined.

I'm either going to die at 71 or 72 like my maternal grandfather or my mom, OR, I'll live to my mid 80's like my paternal grandpa and my dad. Not going to sit here and worry about which one it'll be. I just live life when I can afford to, since at the end of the day, no matter what you THINK might kill you doesn't matter in the slightest. It's your GENETICS that WILL kill you.

That's why this guy that's petrified of heights flies paramotors. I'm 100x more likely to die of an asthma or heart attack, or choking on food thanks to 5 decades of asthma medication side-effects.

View attachment 1051595

Here's a fun video I shot this summer. Enjoy!

Sorry brother I got enough genetics against me, don't need to add anymore to it.

 

[bwalker]

I taught college chemistry and have experience in difficult separations of complex mixtures organic compounds. That science forms the basis for your refining.



And yes, the EPA is corrupted. They let General Electric off the hook for their PCB contamination which is still an ongoing sham. Currently they propose making an unlined PCB dump over an aquifier, to save GE money.



One of the EPA shills negotiated one of the clandestine settlements with GE, then quit and was rewarded with a no show job with GE. His name was Devillars, look it up.

If you want to continue the chemistry discussion please PM me. I'd be more than happy.