OWB installed but with problems

[Kevin in Ohio]

Kevin,
Wood is well seasoned but is exposed to the weather. I knock off all the snow before it goes into the stove. I have been burning mostly a mixture of wild cherry and maple. A shed is on the schedule for this year.

Water level has gone down. Dealer said make sure you check it when the boiler temp. is the same or it will be different. That's when he said to keep an eye on it the first time. When I told him I collected two gallons in the bucket in 24 hours, he said he would bring the welder.

The stove will overshoot by 4 to 6 degrees sometimes.

Not sure what you mean with the 4" tile. I have a 10" corrugate sleeve that goes through the slab and fits snuggly to the bottom of the OWB. The 6" corrugated containing the PEX goes through the 10" sleeve and into the bottom of the boiler.

Missed you said about dealer coming to weld it, sorry about that. That is bad and feel bad for you. To be honest, I'd want a new stove. Especially since you paid for a NEW non defective piece. A faulty weld job from the factory is something THEY should insist on total replacement to me. Let them rework it and reskin it to sell as a second or reconditioned unit. Did he offer a discount? I doubt it.

Hard for me to believe the factory would WANT a dealer to weld on their unit under warranty unless he is certified or something. Seems a little fishy to me. Personally I'd push the issue with the manufacturer, NOT the dealer before allowing it.

Cresote building up a little is normal, can't get away from it with these boilers really. Your water/leak problem is just making it worse than it should be. Your temp ramp is a little much too under normal circumstances. Must still have a little too much air getting past. Not excessive as it doesn't burn all the wood up before coming down, correct?

4 inch tile(drainage) I'm talking about is under the 10 inch to quickly get rid of any water that comes near it. I run it out to drainage ditch with plenty of fall. Had a friend put one in and just surrounded it with gravel in a tile like you. He was using way too much wood and I noticed over his ditch there was a damp area. He had a natural spring there and the feed line was surrounded by water when we dug down to it. He was heating ground water and you DON'T want that happening. We dug a tile line aloing side of his feed line and usage went way down. Looks like you have a good slope so the only place top keep an eye on is your lowest point.

Keep us posted on what happens and you may want to mention to the factory that "people" are watching how they react to backing their product. No excuse for them not doing you right as this is their fault.

 

[i'mstihlaguy]

Kevin,

Thanks for the comments. I kind of agree that a new unit is in order since it has only been in operation about a week. Sometimes I have to watch myself because I can get a little to picky about things though. I think they have got me on the warranty since it says repair or replace at their option. Doesn't hurt to ask though. I am otherwise happy with it. The dealer hasn't really done anything to cause me concern. Just not sure I trust him welding on it. All companies make mistakes. Its how they correct those mistakes that determines whether they are a good company or not. I will let you guys know how it goes.

 

[Slick]

I would be real leary of someone welding on my week old boiler.....if it were me I'd be as nice as possible but ask to see his welding certificate...if he can produce one and the factory wants him to repair it they may have you with the warranty (my CB says the same thing, most probably do) if he has no welding certificate I'd be a bit more inclined to have a more serious conversation with the factory....how can they then warranty a weld from someone who isn't certified? Don't they employ certified welders at the factory? etc etc...I could come up with a bunch of leading questions like that but as a guy who welds a good deal and has certified welders in his family and works with some everyday...I'd want someone with a cert welding my boiler....

 

[November Wolf]

Nice job on the Install. Everything looks top notch in my book. You done a excellent job on the plumbing. Definatly sounds like you have a water leak. Hopefully it is not to serious to fix. Your creasote build up sounds about normal but your system should not be over shooting the set point by much. I have not noticed any overshoot on my system more than 1 degree.

Once you get the bugs worked out you will be glad you have gone the OWB way.

 

[i'mstihlaguy]

Just got off the phone with the manufacturer who is Pro-Fab in Canada. They directed me to warranty claims in Wisconsin. The lady I spoke with said that I have to go through the dealer. Pro-Fab only makes the product for the dealer. Didn't like the sound of that. I told her I had spoken to him and he was going to attempt to weld it. She said hopefully he can fix it. I said I was concerned and didn't know if he was certified or if they wanted anyone welding on it who was not. She said, "Did you ask him?" I mentioned CWB but she didn't know what I was talking about. I told her that even if he fixes it now that I was worried about six to eight years down the road. Remeber its a prorated warranty. It looks like the company is not going to have much involvement unless it becomes a big issue. I didn't even ask for a replacement. I just said I was really bothered that it was brand new and leaked. I am definately going to be there when he comes to look at it. I am not saying he can't fix it or that he won't do it right. Just trying to protect myself and my investment.

 

[windthrown]

Hmmmm... your copper work looks really good. I have several criticisms on your install though. The biggest problem I see is that you should have insulated both sides of the PEX lines. Your return line temp should only be 10-20 degrees below the outflow temp. So you are going to lose a LOT of heat from that uninsulated return PEX line there. I also would not have placed the unit so far from your house. If it had a highter stack and a good draw, smoke is usually not an issue. I installed our CB OWB 8 feet from the back of the carport, and smoke was very rarely an issue. CB has a good 8-10 feet of stack height on their units though. And you can go higher with another section.

The stacks on those units that you have are way too short. I prefer natural drafts, and a fan is not really needed in an OWB. Long argument there, but natural convection will do the job just fine. In order to do that you need a better draft though, and that means a lot higher stack. A higher stack will get the smoke up higher as well, and it will blow off faster. With your fan being DOA (if I read your post right) there will not be enough draw for the OWB to get hot enough with that stubby stack. As for the icing from the side, I believe that is from condensation. When you start up any new OWB from the factory, they can and will weep a HUGE amount of water for several days. Its the same when installing a new gas fired water heater. They drip for a long time, and they produce a lot of water. In your climate the condensate would have frozen, and it may just be melting slowly as it goes. Evey time I install a water heater, I swear that they have a leak. Until a week or so later when they dry up and the condensation has stopped. Check your water level in the boiler. If it is leaking that much (2 gallons a day), then the water level in the boiler should have dropped significantly in the tank. I do not know about your unit, but CB has a little water level tester above the door.

If the firebox is indeed in need of a weld, that is pure crap. If there is a leak from the factroy, you are going to have nothing but problems with the unit over time. Lets hope it is really condensation that froze, and is melting over time. I would recommend that you insulate the exposed return PEX line in the unit there, and anyplace else that it is exposed. Too late to insulate the buried section, but that stuff is only R3 or 4 at best, and the ground will do the majority of the insulation there anyway. As long as the PEX lines are not in direct contact with any ground water (that is where the vast majority of heat is lost in these units) then you will be OK.

As for the creosote build-up in yoru firebox, that is normal in most older style OWBs. By older style, I mean one of the non-EPA approved, non-gassifier OWB types. The burn temps in them are pretty low, and when the dampers are shut off, they essentially turn into charcoal makers and the gasses smolder and build up on the sides. Creosote is toxic to plants if it is left unburned, and it burns cleanly. So sluff it off the sides with a garden hoe or a flat shovel and into the firepan area, and it will burn off. That is a typical daily chore with an old style OWB; open door, sluff off creosote, fill it with wood, close door, check water level and temp, and you are done for 12 hours or so.

BTW: Central Boiler has a 20 year warantee on the firebox. We got a one year warantee on the electronics, and they replaced the controller 2 times, the second a year and a half after we bought it. We had a good dealer though. CB has really thick steel plate in their boilers.

 

[Butch(OH)]

Pro fab eh? Three years ago when I was looking for a boiler Pro Fab sold three OWBs under three names that were identical excpet for material. The 304 stainless models were called Empire, another was called Cozyburn I think 409 and another for carbon steel. They were big promoters of 304 at that time and I flat could not afford one in 304 but they gave the appearance of being very well made.

I will differ from Windthrown in that not all sweat puddles, I dont remember a drop from mine, maybe the only one?? I do agree with him about the draft, when I have a weekend at home I plan to unhook the fan from my 4400 and let just the flapper be controlled by the ETC just to do some testing. I use all dry and split wood and I am thinkng that the fan is overkill for good fuel thus wasting it.

 

[windthrown]

I will differ from Windthrown in that not all sweat puddles, I dont remember a drop from mine, maybe the only one?? I do agree with him about the draft, when I have a weekend at home I plan to unhook the fan from my 4400 just to do some testing. I use all dry and split wood and I am thinkng that the fan is overkill for good fuel thus wasting it.

Well, every gas water heater (dozens) and OWB (a few) that I have installed sweated more than just a puddle. They sweat a flood!

As for the fans in OWBs, I feel that they waste a lot of heat too. The air moves too fast through the firebox and up the stack. They are nice for fast re-lighting/re-starting when the damper opens though. Maybe put a timer on it so it runs for 2-5 minutes, then kicks off. Easier not to have one though, less wiring, less to break down. Taller stack is the key to that working though.

 

[tanker]

For the kind of money that you put out to buy your owb, at one week old,you can bet that they would be jacking the leaky one up and putting a another one under it on their dime.I'm kind of funny about things like this and would not accept anything less.Good luck with whatever you decide. Scott

 

[i'mstihlaguy]

Hmmmm... your copper work looks really good. I have several criticisms on your install though. The biggest problem I see is that you should have insulated both sides of the PEX lines. Your return line temp should only be 10-20 degrees below the outflow temp. So you are going to lose a LOT of heat from that uninsulated return PEX line there. I also would not have placed the unit so far from your house. If it had a highter stack and a good draw, smoke is usually not an issue.

Both lines are insulated. The black foam pipe insulation was mostly just to isolate and insulate supply and return from each other. Both lines have about 5 wraps of Solar Guard insulation around them and then I took a roll of R13 fiberglass insulation and was able to get the 12" width to make one complete wrap around all of that. My drop from boiler to basement is almost nothing. My drop between supply and return is 3 to 4 degrees just going through the side arm and the rest of the piping when the air handler is not running. This is measured in the basement though. Could be losing another degree from there to the OWB but the return is well insulated.

As for the icing from the side, I believe that is from condensation. When you start up any new OWB from the factory, they can and will weep a HUGE amount of water for several days. Its the same when installing a new gas fired water heater. They drip for a long time, and they produce a lot of water. In your climate the condensate would have frozen, and it may just be melting slowly as it goes. Evey time I install a water heater, I swear that they have a leak. Until a week or so later when they dry up and the condensation has stopped. Check your water level in the boiler. If it is leaking that much (2 gallons a day), then the water level in the boiler should have dropped significantly in the tank. I do not know about your unit, but CB has a little water level tester above the door.

Water level is dropping. I just added more water a moment ago.

BTW: Central Boiler has a 20 year warantee on the firebox. We got a one year warantee on the electronics, and they replaced the controller 2 times, the second a year and a half after we bought it. We had a good dealer though. CB has really thick steel plate in their boilers.

Thanks for your comments. Before I purchased this unit I called the local CB dealer several times and he never returned my calls so I gave up. I also have a friend who did the same thing but he actually got to talk to the guy in person. He liked the product but did not like the dealer so he purchase the same unit I have from Clear Flame. He has been operating for a year with no problems and is very happy.

 

[i'mstihlaguy]

Pro fab eh? Three years ago when I was looking for a boiler Pro Fab sold three OWBs under three names that were identical excpet for material. The 304 stainless models were called Empire, another was called Cozyburn I think 409 and another for carbon steel. They were big promoters of 304 at that time and I flat could not afford one in 304 but they gave the appearance of being very well made.

Yes, when I called the company the lady asked me which stove I had. Kind of caught me off guard. The Clear Flame is supposedly 10 gauge 304 stainless for the fire box and water jacket. I am very particular and was pleased with the quality of this unit overall. Kind of a big let down about the leak though. Hopefully it won't be a big deal to fix. I am going to wait and see how bad it is and if any other welds look questionable before I get too excited. The owners manual says the dealer is authorized to make warranty repairs so I will give him a chance to make it right.

 

[i'mstihlaguy]

For the kind of money that you put out to buy your owb, at one week old,you can bet that they would be jacking the leaky one up and putting a another one under it on their dime.I'm kind of funny about things like this and would not accept anything less.Good luck with whatever you decide. Scott

Slick gave some good questions to ask in his post and I talked to our AWS/CWB welding inspector from the quality dept. at work. Oh yes, I work for one of those great companies that outsourced everything to Mexico and China. Instead of being able to walk out to the factory to look at something, they now have to fly to a foreign country. Just clarifying that we don't have any welders where I work anymore.

I am going to play it by ear and hopefully ask the right questions. Hopefully we can work in good faith to resolve the issue.

 

[windthrown]

Both lines are insulated.

Good. From the one photo it looked like the one PEX line was completely uninsulated. If you are getting less than 10 degrees drop from boiler outlet to return, you are doing good. I devised a similar corrugated drain pipe and PEX system that they sell by the foot on Ebay now. Just dual PEX lines sleeved with 3/4 inch copper foam insulation all stuffed into 4 inch solid drain pipe. I also used blue and red PEX to dinstinguish the lines, as it was the same price as clear/white, and we needed about 100 feet of each.

Both lines are insulated.
Water level is dropping. I just added more water a moment ago.

NOT GOOD! Swear and cuss and gripe at the company. That means either a leak or a boil over (and I assume it did not boil over). The leak is probably in the water jacket on a welded seam. Field welding it is a bad option, especially with SS. I am not a fan of SS in OWBs. I have only installed plain steel ones, and they are all in good shape after years of operation. The fact that is has a leak at all is a bad tribute to their manufacturing and/or shipping process. If that happens on our CB boiler (or rather, the ex's now), CB would replace it under warantee. I think that thing will last 30 years though. No rust in there at all.

Thanks for your comments. Before I purchased this unit I called the local CB dealer several times and he never returned my calls so I gave up. I also have a friend who did the same thing but he actually got to talk to the guy in person. He liked the product but did not like the dealer so he purchase the same unit I have from Clear Flame. He has been operating for a year with no problems and is very happy.

No problem. I know what a pain in the arse it is to design and install these things. I also know what it takes to do an install as clean as the one you did. I was not on either MEN or AS at the time I installed the fisrt one. Sad that your boiler company is letting you down in their product failing and their response to it. Again, I had no such issues with CB (quite the opposite, really), and our CB rep here in Oregon is a great guy. If I buy another house I will probably install one of their newer EPA certified boilers.

 

[John D]

Great job on the install,I like how you wrapped the pex,and wrapped the whole thing with r13 when done.The only issue I see no ones mentioned yet is you should have used type UF direct burial wiring instead of regular romex.If not UF,than sch 40 grey conduit and stranded wire.If you ever need an electrical inspection,you will fail.I realize you have it shielded in the 6" corrugated pipe,and all,but its still outdoor,underground.The corrugated isnt an approved conduit,as far as i know.The Uf would have eliminated the need for any conduit,and water woes.

 

[windthrown]

Great job on the install,I like how you wrapped the pex,and wrapped the whole thing with r13 when done.The only issue I see no ones mentioned yet is you should have used type UF direct burial wiring instead of regular romex.If not UF,than sch 40 grey conduit and stranded wire.If you ever need an electrical inspection,you will fail.I realize you have it shielded in the 6" corrugated pipe,and all,but its still outdoor,underground.The corrugated isnt an approved conduit,as far as i know.The Uf would have eliminated the need for any conduit,and water woes.

Good catch. I missed that myself. I thought that was a wire for finding the PEX lines with a metal detector. I use UF romex in grey PVC conduit myself, in a separate run than the water lines. Probably overkill, but I prefer it to be shovel proof. The romex he installed will more than likely last the lifetime of the boiler though, as long as someone does not hit it with a shovel.

 

[John D]

Good catch. I missed that myself. I thought that was a wire for finding the PEX lines with a metal detector. I use UF romex in grey PVC conduit myself, in a separate run than the water lines. Probably overkill, but I prefer it to be shovel proof. The romex he installed will more than likely last the lifetime of the boiler though, as long as someone does not hit it with a shovel.

I did the same thing,12/3 UF in a 1" sch 40,overkill,but one thing i wont need to worry about.Mine needs to pass inspection,as well.

 

[mtfallsmikey]

Nice, quality install, hope you get your leak issue straightened out...only fault I see is where you relocated your relief valve, but I have beat that one to death before....
Certified welders may/may not be required on non-pressurized "vessels" that are only UL/CE approved, but any boiler/commercial HWH must be welded by ASME-cert. welders...

Why would you need to remove the HX from the plenum in the summer?...As a general rule, they don't add a whole lot of resistance/static pressure to the system.

 

[Butch(OH)]

Why would you need to remove the HX from the plenum in the summer?...As a general rule, they don't add a whole lot of resistance/static pressure to the system.

I put mine on a slide so it can be moved out of the plenum when the A/C is being used. It added about 50 cents and an hour to the installation. Since my supply lines come into it at a 90 they easily flex to move it and it is easy to get at. I am no HVAC 'spert but figured that removing any resistance to the A/C air movement would save operational costs. If was a pain to install or move I would not have bothered.

 

[Slick]

A certified welder might not be required by some law or UL rating....but it would be required by ME if it was my boiler...I've seen plenty of examples that just having a welder doesn't make you a welder...plus didn't I read this is stainless? So it should be TIG welded...that is not a job for anyone who can buy a welder...in my opinion TIG welding is an artform...

 

[Lloyd H]

pex tubing

I have read that you should not tape pex pipe with duct tape, the adhesive in the tape is not good for the pipe. I believe it was in one of Dan Holohans books. It was discussing pex for radiant floor heat and encouraged use of fasteners designed to be compatible with the pex.