OWB installed but with problems

[windthrown]

I have read that you should not tape pex pipe with duct tape, the adhesive in the tape is not good for the pipe. I believe it was in one of Dan Holohans books. It was discussing pex for radiant floor heat and encouraged use of fasteners designed to be compatible with the pex.

Maybe on the flooring stuff. I have used duct tape on 1 inch PEX OWB lines and there has never been a problem. I also use zip ties, electrical tape, and whatever else I had on hand.

 

[i'mstihlaguy]

Great job on the install,I like how you wrapped the pex,and wrapped the whole thing with r13 when done.The only issue I see no ones mentioned yet is you should have used type UF direct burial wiring instead of regular romex.If not UF,than sch 40 grey conduit and stranded wire.If you ever need an electrical inspection,you will fail.I realize you have it shielded in the 6" corrugated pipe,and all,but its still outdoor,underground.The corrugated isnt an approved conduit,as far as i know.The Uf would have eliminated the need for any conduit,and water woes.

I didn't even think about corrugated not being an approved conduit. Shouldn't be an issue though because they are pretty lax in my county with code enforcement for the few we even have. I know there are state codes that are supposed to be followed but there are no inspections. When we built our house (just finished about a year ago) we only had to get a permit for the septic system. They said call before you cover it up. When I called, they said okay, cover it up.:monkey:

Worse case I pull out the romex and replace with direct burial. I even put in a pull rope to pull anything through after the fact.

 

[John D]

I didn't even think about corrugated not being an approved conduit. Shouldn't be an issue though because they are pretty lax in my county with code enforcement for the few we even have. I know there are state codes that are supposed to be followed but there are no inspections. When we built our house (just finished about a year ago) we only had to get a permit for the septic system. They said call before you cover it up. When I called, they said okay, cover it up.:monkey:

Worse case I pull out the romex and replace with direct burial. I even put in a pull rope to pull anything through after the fact.

I seen your rope,great idea.The problem really isnt even lack of conduit,the standard romex isnt outdoor rated period.So no matter what you put it in,its illegal if its outside a weathertight building structure or underground.

 

[i'mstihlaguy]

I have to correct myself. The Clear Flame OWB's use 409 not 304 stainless. The dealer is supposed to show up today or tomorrow. Hopefully I will have an update soon.

 

[atlarge54]

I used a 409 stainless unit as the base for my homemade system. The unit was manufactured in 2001 and was only in service for a couple seasons before it became perforated with holes. I paid $300 for the unit in 2005 and probably had 75-100 holes or near holes welded shut in the firebox. Sorry to hear about your misadventures, now would be a good time to research corrosion protection and keep your water in tip top condition. If your dealer has been around any length of time he'd be aware of these problems.

 

[Jkebxjunke]

I used a 409 stainless unit as the base for my homemade system. The unit was manufactured in 2001 and was only in service for a couple seasons before it became perforated with holes. I paid $300 for the unit in 2005 and probably had 75-100 holes or near holes welded shut in the firebox. Sorry to hear about your misadventures, now would be a good time to research corrosion protection and keep your water in tip top condition. If your dealer has been around any length of time he'd be aware of these problems.

ouch

 

[atlarge54]

My last post got cut short by the doorbell. When I picked my boiler up there was a much newer leaker on the back lot awaiting warranty issues. These were global hydronic units and were manufactured in Canada. I think 409 stainless is worth avoiding, all stainless is not created equal. Maybe these problems have been resolved in the past few years, anybody know if improvements have been made? No water touches my firebox only copper, the dry 409 should give a long life I hope.

 

[Jkebxjunke]

my new OWB is 1/4 boiler plate steel.... hopefully it will last

 

[i'mstihlaguy]

What's wrong with 409 stainless (if welded correctly)? I know its a lower grade of stainless but isn't that at least a little better than plain steel?

 

[windthrown]

What's wrong with 409 stainless (if welded correctly)? I know its a lower grade of stainless but isn't that at least a little better than plain steel?

IMO, SS is not desirable in OWBs. We originally looked at SS as a $1,000 option on the one I installed at the ex's, but the CB dealer talked us out of it. I have since found several issues with SS. One they do not transfer heat as well as plain steel. Two they are not corrosion resistant, as most people would think. Three they are a lot more expensive (and I mean a LOT!). Four they are a lot harder to weld, should they spring a leak (again, a LOT!). Five is that they tend to be and/or get brittle, and are more prone to cracking.

After installing, using and observing mild steel OWBs, I do not see any need for using SS in them. CB makes a really good corrosion inhibitor, and if used correctly the rust will be kept to near zero on the water side of the steel. The pH of the CB corrosion inhibitor keeps the steel from rusting on the water side. Someone else on this site did a complete chemical analysis of the corrosion inhibitor that CB sells, and posted that it was really good stuff. On the firebox side after years of use, I have yet to see any significant corrosion at all, especially below the ash level in the pan. Creosote is not a significant cause of corrosion of steel according to my engineering books, and from my observations with using an OWB for several years. The main corrosion problem that you can get on the inside of the firebox is if you let water pool up in the ash pan, or get behind a blob of creosote in the firebox. Rake the ash pan and sluff off the creosote daily, and that will not be a problem.

The other thing to note is that when buying an OWB with mild steel, make sure that it is good and thick. I have seen several OWBs with thin material, and they are bound to fail. CB uses really thick steel in their boilers. So do a few other good OWB companies that I have seen.

 

[mtfallsmikey]

'Thrown is right....CB recommends spraying the firebox area with WD-40 after the burn season, ash more corrosive than creosote...and I also think SS is a waste of money IMHO, and use the CB inhibitor.

 

[windthrown]

'Thrown is right....CB recommends spraying the firebox area with WD-40 after the burn season, ash more corrosive than creosote...and I also think SS is a waste of money IMHO, and use the CB inhibitor.

I have not found ash to be corrosive at all. Maybe it was the wood we burned, but I doubt it. We burned all kinds of wood in there, green, seasoned, wet, madrone, alder, fir, sycamore, pine, oak, 2x4s, half rotted bug-infested wood, driftwood, junk mail, cardboard, brush, etc. etc. I never used Ashtrol, and the dealer said it was not needed. I completely cleaned out the firebox after 2.5 years of use, and the ash pan was smooth and clean, as if it was just manufactured. There was some light superficial pitting under the creosote, but it was minor.

I did spray the inside with WD-40 in the spring when I shut it down though. I swear by that stuff. I think that off-season corrosion is a real potential for problems. Summer rains can leave a lot of water in the filebox if you do not cover the stack. I used a 5 gallon bucket to cover it in summer at first, then I got a rain cap for it.

 

[mtfallsmikey]

Here now...I give you a compliment, and......
CB manual sez ash CAN be corrosive...Ashtrol/lime one in the same, so sez my dealer....I don't use it myself.

 

[oneoldbanjo]

I think ash is corrosive......when it becomes wet. I accidently left the top off my new shiny metal trash can when it had about 5 inches of ash in it, and then we got a little bit of rain that night. I found the problem the next morning and dumped out the ashes and rinsed out the can - and the bright shiny zinc coating was eaten off wherever the wet ashes were touching the side of the can.

 

[mtfallsmikey]

The main reason CB likes for you to use Ashtrol...if water temps fall below 160 condensation may form under the coals/ashes, especially if they get built up thick, insulating the coals from the firebox base. No prob if you don't let it build up.
:greenchainsaw:

 

[i'mstihlaguy]

In the manual, Clear Flame recommends sloping the concrete pad 1/4" to help drain the ash compartment. I don't think that is really enough to do anything though especially with the creosote build up I have. They also sell a water treatment. The manual states the water properties should be:

pH level: 9.5 - 11
Nitrate Level: 800-1200 ppm as NaNO2
Conductivity level: 3000 - 3500mmhos

Do you have to send it to a special lab or can the Culligan Guy check this?

Still waiting to hear from the dealer when he is coming to look at the leak. On the warranty registration page it states they have the option of repairing and/or replacing any parts or refunding the purchase price of the furnace. I am trying to decide if I should let him open it up to see what the problem is (looks like) or if I should just demand my money back. Bottom line is if it didn't leak or if I thought he could repair it 100% and never have another problem I would be happy. But that's a big if.

 

[Slick]

CB's come with a small kit to check the nitrate levels. Pretty easy....put some water in, drip in some dye etc....think I saw a name brand inside the kit..I'll check when I stir the dragon later

 

[bigjake]

I tig weld a lot i can tell you some ss welds nice and some looks gray and
pourus .Another thing to remember its often hard to get the torch in
the right place when welding out of position.Just look and the welds
most of the time if a tig weld looks nice its most likely a good weld.

You can also arc weld ss even though 10 gauge is thick dont let hin
do it .Sorry to see you do a very nice job and then have a leak
problem thats not your fault.

Good luck

 

[windthrown]

Here now...I give you a compliment, and......
CB manual sez ash CAN be corrosive...Ashtrol/lime one in the same, so sez my dealer....I don't use it myself.

So noted! And thank you.

I just wanted to make the point from my experience. People seem to waste a lot of time and money on stuff like Ashtrol. It is simple ag lime from what I have heard. I dunno why. The base of my now-ex's CB firebox is smooth and gleaming after 4 or 5 years of use now. I do not know how many cords of wood has gone through that thing. 40 or 50? Something like that.

 

[windthrown]

In the manual, Clear Flame recommends sloping the concrete pad 1/4" to help drain the ash compartment. I don't think that is really enough to do anything though especially with the creosote build up I have.

1/4 inch pitch to drain the ashes? Egads... I prefer a firebox with a flat bottom burn area like CB has. No ash augers, no grates or other crap in the bottom, no lower door or any of that. I used a garden hoe to scrape and stir the ashes once a day before loading the boiler. This also moved the coals around and pulled any water that may have caked with any ash away from metal. Looking back water was never an issue though, even without a rain cap. And that CB boiler is in a rain forest; 72 inches was the lowest raifall I recorded there in 4 years. 6 feet! Over 100 inches was more common. We also burned a lot of soaked wood the first year. I kept the thermostat on the boiler at 170, meaning it popped on at 160. This was becasue the house has hardwood floors, and the circulating hydronic floor temp only needed to be 100 degrees. 140 was pleanty hot for hot water temp. Also had a fast recovery flat plate Hx for the DWH and the hydronic floor loop.

They also sell a water treatment. The manual states the water properties should be:

pH level: 9.5 - 11
Nitrate Level: 800-1200 ppm as NaNO2
Conductivity level: 3000 - 3500mmhos

Do you have to send it to a special lab or can the Culligan Guy check this?

As said above, CB sells a test kit for that. They also sell corrosion inhibitor.

Still waiting to hear from the dealer when he is coming to look at the leak. On the warranty registration page it states they have the option of repairing and/or replacing any parts or refunding the purchase price of the furnace. I am trying to decide if I should let him open it up to see what the problem is (looks like) or if I should just demand my money back. Bottom line is if it didn't leak or if I thought he could repair it 100% and never have another problem I would be happy. But that's a big if.

I would demand my money back and get another brand, like CB or WoodMaster. They will not leak. This company seems weird. You can always plumb in another boiler to what you have installed already.