Saw techniques and cutting/felling safety

[Cedarkerf]

bks044:

Who is in the avatar?
They sure look the part .

What's next? Jerry Beranek asking us to evaluate his wedging technique?

Gentlemen, we are being had!

That would be me. I have done a lot of cutting sending private ranchers trees to saw mill 20-30 chords of fire wood a year for sale5 years. Shingle and shake bolt cutting. Have never had stumps evaluated since high school forestery class back in 80. Back when Washington still had highschool classes for future loggers. With all the high skill shown here just thought I'd see what they say. Not trying to take any one for a ride. I have done well i have cut up to 56" Doug Fir never had any major problems. Typical pinched saw etc. I am never past learning and seein how I am doing.
Its in my blood Grandads on both sides logged dads side even used the old drag saw. Moms side had his own logging company for a while.

 

[PA Plumber]

PA:

I do not believe you.
They are very short stumps.
Nice flat cuts.
Looks to be perfectly even holding wood across the hinge.

How long did you say you've been falling trees?

(I do think your undercuts are too small, at least for use generally in larger timber. That doesn't mean that is mandatory, especially looking at the ones that went over with a reasonably thick hinge. Perhaps on the thin hinges, you could look back and consider that input.)

However, it is time to come clean on the experience question.

Allright you got me. The trees I took pictures of were the last few I have cut down. I think I am up to about 25 or so now. I have cut a few trees down over the years, but have never used any technique whatsoever. Like I mentioned before, me dad taught me to cut and hope to be out of the way when the tree fell.

Since I have joined this site, I have read a lot of posts, looked at a couple of sites, and read a good part of Douglas Dent's book. I really am a plumber by trade and have only been trying to cut trees down correctly about 1 1/2 months now.

Would it help if I took some pictures of some really botched up stumps? I have lots!!

Thanks for the input. I can make the face cuts a little deeper or would taller be better? I'm trying to keep a 70 degree angle to save lumber.

 

[manual]

Mind if I step in Guys ?

What about rolling the tree as it falls, Sometimes keeping a full hinge can get you in trouble, like snagging into other trees.

 

[clearance]

Mind if I step in Guys ?

What about rolling the tree as it falls, Sometimes keeping a full hinge can get you in trouble, like snagging into other trees.

Please explain, I don't understand this concept.

 

[manual]

Let say you have a tree in front of your falling direction.
So the only way to get the tree down is to let it roll out of that tree. as it falls. holding a full hinge will not let your tree roll out.

 

[clearance]

OK, I understand. Here that is not allowed (in logging anyways), it is frowned upon, a bad practice, it is known a "brushing standing timber". If I was logging I would just fall the tree in the way, if it had a bad lean, was snag or another good reason then I would put in my undercut and backcut, then hit it with the other tree. Domino style.

 

[FSburt]

Man I missed a good thread

Boy alot goes on when you miss a few days of checking in. Hey fellas have been busy certifying our forest fallers over the last few weeks and also helped out with a Regional C faller class down in Southern Cal with D Dent. Have not seen him in a few years so it was nice to talk with him again and pick his knowledge on different falling situations. Here is what I took away from this latest session. Conventional vs. Humbolt both have their place but from Dougs many sessions in court cases dealing with accidents and fatalities his point about your head being out of verticle such as the person in the picture making the open faced cut was a perfect example of your neck and spine being very vulnerable to fracture if hit by anything vs. your body being straight up and down and more able to absorb more of a blow with the whole body. His experiences with dealing with fatalities over his life hammers home how dangerous and fragile our bodies are when compared to the immense weights and pressures of wood we are dealing with. I have had the pleasure to attend and certify with Doug on 4 occasions starting in 1996 and each time i have learned alot and each time walk away with a better appreciation for the skills i have learned in this job. " Remember it is not what you know that will get you killed but what you don't know" D Dent.
Now here's a technique that I learned when cutting on large diameter timber. When making the undercut and your ripping out 1/2 of it on the offside cut that side of the backcut up while you are on that side of the tree so all you have to do is knock out the rest of the undercut and finish the near side backcut and away she goes. Have not had chance to try it yet but makes sense for more efficient technique.
Good thread but is probably getting played out by now.

Hey slinger are you working on burned timber near Redding?

 

[manual]

OK, I understand. Here that is not allowed (in logging anyways), it is frowned upon, a bad practice, it is known a "brushing standing timber". If I was logging I would just fall the tree in the way, if it had a bad lean, was snag or another good reason then I would put in my undercut and backcut, then hit it with the other tree. Domino style.

It may be frowned upon, I think it is necessary in a select cut timber sale.

What would be the safest was to execute this type of fall ?

 

[PA Plumber]

It may be frowned upon, I think it is necessary in a select cut timber sale.

What would be the safest was to execute this type of fall ?

Not a pro here but this is my reasoning.

I am doing a select cut of Hemlock at the moment. If I have this situation developing, I fall trees to make openings. Hemlocks have limber branches, but they can still rip the snot out of standing timber.

I would rather have a full secure hinge while working under these large trees. If the hinge is compromised in any way, seems like control of the tree will be affected.

 

[smokechase II]

powerpoint slide from slide show

To explain some of Doug Dents background that FS Burt is talking about.
Dent is THE expert witness in many court cases. He is the guy brought in to do the reports. One side that most of us don't see that much is the human face of these tragedies. He has had to deal personally with a lot of sadness.
Even though Doug Dent is a logger by trade. To some degree, he has dropped carte blanch support of the Humboldt. It is the widowmaker thing.
With regard to the open face undercut. He has emphasized for years large undercuts. 45-50 degree range. (There is a bad habit out west of doing too many 20 degree quickies.) But I'm not aware of a 70-90 degree support by him.
I have heard that he is fairly supportive of boring back cuts. More so than the average West Coast instructor.

Burt, are these statements accurate?

Here is a powerpoint slide from a slide show that I'm assembling.

 

[GASoline71]

PA Plumber... You stumps don't look bad at all. I will agree that the face cuts are a little shallow... but you are well on your way. You don't need that much wood out back for wedging.

I read a post earlier about using different techniques for different situations. I am in total agreement. Like I said earlier... I mostly use Humboldt's... but when the situation calls for something different, and the use of ropes, a winch, a choker, or whatever I need to get the job done... I do it.

Gary

 

[FSburt]

In reply to smokechases comments these are the case with Dougs teachings during his class. The picture you posted shows exactly why your neck could be broke easier in that position than if you were standing with your neck straight up. Its amazing at some of the legal aspects that Doug presents to the class from a lawyers questioning standpoint it really makes you thing about the safety rules that are presented by OSHA and what happens in a court session and how they are brought into play. Exposure time underneath treees in another biggie that is reviewed during the sessions. We were cutting burned snags up on place called San Sevine lookout up near the Cucamunga Wilderness on the San Bernadino and surprisingly the wood was still very sound for being dead since the Grand Prix fire in 2003, but most of it was Sugar pine which stays sound for along time.

 

[tek9tim]

Hmm... Grand Prix, it was either that or the Old fire that a faller got nailed by a tree on. Odd fire to bring up given the context.

 

[John Ellison]

It may be frowned upon, I think it is necessary in a select cut timber sale.

What would be the safest was to execute this type of fall ?

Good question manual. Brushing trees combined with not looking up has to be a leading cause of falling accidents. But there are times when there is no other way. Even in a clear cut there are times when you are gona have to brush another standing tree.
Early in the fall in a tree with little lean it will sometimes stop the fall. If anything breaks loose and falls it will land close to the stump.
When your tree brushes another about halfway down or less, is when it really gets exciting. If the limbs hang up enough to bend the other tree over you have a great catapult. It can and lots of times will, throw limbs or a top right back at you. Even well behind the stump. I have a good friend here in AR. that is paralized from the waist down since 2000 from this very thing.
There are so many variables here that it is hard to say what to do.

I think that the two inch high backcut is necessary on the west c. with taller timber and steep ground because it is so hard to get away from the stump on some ground. As a general rule.
For myself, in this area of the country. If I have to brush another tree and it is at the right distance where it could be bad I will use a narrow enough face cut so it will break the hinge early enough that it will not be as likely to hang up, which would just create a more dangerous situation. This can be a good time to use a plunge cut and release to increase getaway time. Again this is usually good ground and there is no problem to be 30' away almost instantly. I will also use a level backcut to lessen the chance of it hanging up. I dont care if it comes back off the stump, because I am gone.
I like to pick out a good tree that is the appropriate distance away to get behind like a shield.:greenchainsaw:
I think that this is another example of what works in this part of the country might not be so good of an idea in another.
A faller needs to plan ahead and try to think of all the what ifs.

 

[smokechase II]

video of not looking up

youtube again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVFt6xo5ObM&mode=related&search=

This shows instructor Tim Ard demonstrating.

Pros:
Matches cuts well,
Cuts out areas of butt swell to cut more of tree center,
Uses 'teams' of stacked wedges angled, more lift.

Cons:
Small face makes wedging more difficult,
Short bar didn't quite make it through - face center bore would have helped finish the cut and would have made wedging easier (another reason for deeper face),
Never looked up once,
Did not even look up when wedging - first wedge strike is a necessary time to look,
What about his POSTURE? Neck and back exposure.

Death from above.

 

[SWE#Kipp]

I have not read all the posts in this thread, but I wonder if there are some statistics of people injured/killed using the gol method or the "regular" methods in similar conditions and under a equal time/user conditions ??

I don't favor any method, just use whatever fits my needs from tree to tree ,,,,,

 

[Tzed250]

youtube again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVFt6xo5ObM&mode=related&search=

This shows instructor Tim Ard demonstrating.

Pros:
Matches cuts well,
Cuts out areas of butt swell to cut more of tree center,
Uses 'teams' of stacked wedges angled, more lift.

Cons:
Small face makes wedging more difficult,
Short bar didn't quite make it through - face center bore would have helped finish the cut and would have made wedging easier (another reason for deeper face),
Never looked up once,
Did not even look up when wedging - first wedge strike is a necessary time to look,
What about his POSTURE? Neck and back exposure.

Death from above.

How does a small face cut make wedging more difficult?

 

[clearance]

How does a small face cut make wedging more difficult?

Harder to lift, picture a straight up and down tree, I mean perfectly straight up and down. Now, if you put in a little undercut, you will have to wedge it over, a big undercut and you can push it over with your hand. The bigger wedge moves the tipping point back further, so there is less wieght to move. Maybe someone can draw a picture, I don't know how, this will show what I mean.

 

[tek9tim]

GOL seems to place plenty of emphasis on the size of the hinge, and none on the location. If your hinge is closer to the center of the tree, there is more weight in front of it predisposing it to fall where you want it to, thus you don't need to put as much pressure on it with your wedges to get it to commit to the fall.

 

[smokechase II]

GOL in similar circumstances

SWE#Kip:

Those stats would not be available on the West Coast for Conventional/Humboldt versus Open Face.

Open Face, as far as I know is not used here by any pro cutters.

I do think that in one respect the GOL sponsored training and certification is almost certainly of great benefit in reducing fatalities.

Just having any program that is serious about safety will pay rewards.

I think what is going on in British Columbia is spot on and it will be interesting to review in a few years.

Scenario: Lots of fatalities with a 'cheap' production system.
Step 1: Widows complain, justifiably.
Step 2: Book / classroom / written testing.
Step 3: Pass a field test.
Step 4: Have to prove yourself on the grade in some level of journeyman-apprentice program.

There is a reason that we do this for electricians. I think it is warranted in the Falling Profession and for my nickels worth, I strongly support those Canadians. (Did I just loose my AS privileges?)

The BC program, I think, will cut the fatality thing in half or better if accompanied by a level of fines that gets the owners 'attention'.

In the Forest Service, we actually require retesting/certification yearly for our lower level cutters and ever other year for our C Fallers. {I was first C Cert'd in 1978 and it's been every other year since. Think of this as step 5.}