Saw techniques and cutting/felling safety

[Tzed250]

Clearance,

Take your fight up with GOL. I was passing on information. If you dont like the methods, fine. I no longer cut trees for a living. I fool around with saws for relaxation. To me chainsaws are fun. I am glad you like to cut the way you do. The GOL methods worked well for me when I did use a saw on the job. Maybe GOL is no good. The problem is that there is no PROOF one way or the other. I will go ahead and say you are right and I am wrong. That should make you feel much better. Have a nice day!

 

[ShoerFast]

You mean Humboldt, Shoe, Dutchmen isn't in this talk (thank God)

Yes
Steering it back to the topic of safety, taking chances, or relying on a procedure is no substitute for common sense. Take this simple test, there are as many that would disagree then agree with OSHA's idea.


http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/logging/manual/felling/cuts/apply_knowledge/apply_knowledge.html

 

[Highclimber OR]

Yes, everyone stay alert and safe. Danger is sometimes a matter of opinion sometimes not, be safe and figure out what works for you. I know enough "Techniques" to get me through my business safely and effectively but it is good to know what everyone thinks because someone just might learn something like me everyday in this business.

 

[smokechase II]

looking up

Tzed250:

"Will looking up stop the branch from hitting you if it is 5 feet from you when you see it? If sight is the only way, then you must never take your eyes from the canopy. Is this how you cut?"

No, that would be too late.

Probably the most important part of this thread is to combine John Ellison's post, (getting clobbered from above), with just saying no to a tree or snag where you cannot mitigate the hazards from above.

By:
Being proficient enough at cutting to keep glancing up and down when starting and finishing any of the three cuts. Then in the time between starting and finishing, looking up basically continuously.

Being capable of completing all your cuts from either 'side' of a tree. This to not place yourself under the hazard side of some trees. (For some unknown reason, GOL fractionizes are really big on small bars, often removing this option. In a related area, bucking larger logs that have to be matched because of inadequate bar length from the downhill side on a real slope also would seem to be questionable. Whatever makes your day.)

Having acquired the judgment to discern when a limb is most dangerous. I.e. one that is completely severed and just ready to go or a limb that is hanging vertically by 'a thread' or a limb that is of a larger diameter with no leaves or limbs below to slow its descent etc.

Realizing that any vibration could be the sponsor of starting a hazard toward the faller. Even though you've hit the tree with a falling axe to check for rot and see if you could loosen limbs and discern the jello like movement of rot in main stem, you should also look up immediately after initiating any cut as that vibration could be the one the kills you ..... If you don't just look.

Adopt a posture that not only allows you the look up and escape quicker, but provides the smallest vertical target. This means cutting standing up with good upper body posture and your knees just slightly bent, ready for action.

To acquire these skills, one needs to practice them on solid green 'safer' trees.

Does anyone have any photos of Soren Falling?

 

[smokechase II]

Reason for open face

clearance:

Look over the Norwegian diagram for open face attached to this post.

Forget that it is a different language.

Step back a bit a try not to be so reactionary. Don't beat the piss and vinegar out of me. Breathe deep and relax.

In a forest where almost everything isn't second growth, it's 15th growth.
Where very few snags have your name on them.
Tree heights and diameters are small.
Minimal butt swell.
Birds chip with gossip pleasantly.

The Open Face cut is a reasonable compromise that affects the butt log the least. (By lowering the back-cut and having a minimal face cut for depth, this technique can waste less than a Humboldt. This is especially important in a climate with smaller timber to start with.)

Would an open face be a desirable technique to adopt in Coastal BC? Absolutely not.

Among the many reasons why not:
The open face will not work as well when wedging, the faller needs a better initial release. A deeper face to wedge the tougher trees is obvious.

The open face will waste wood, compared to the Humboldt in large butt swell timber.

The amount of time it takes to cut something that doesn't work as well. Cheeeezzz.

To the credit of the East Coast fallers I've seen. They've modified their face cuts from this drawing and go in much farther. That makes sense with their larger timber. Keep going west and one can understand why we start from a 1/3 rd in rule on undercuts.

The next reason for open face is that it can keep the hinge attached all the way through the fall. With trees generally not wanting to go as quickly with a smaller face and an hinge solid throughout the fall, they come down slower. This has a few advantages. Less breakage and just a little more time for escape.
It can also contribute to a tree hanging up, so beware of that.

The school of thought on why the back-cut is to be even with the face bottom/apex is that if the hinge is still holding, there is no need for stump shot. In fact, it may well be better than stump shot on some trees.

(Part of the reason they can 'get away' with the shallow face cuts, is that perfectly matched back-cuts are very efficient. When viewed in this light, the ridiculously small face isn't that small.)

Now, on slope, with a large butt being slammed up and down with the power to smash a log truck cab flat, does this thought process apply?

No.

 

[blis]

......

That looks almost like how i fell trees, just that i'ev been taught to make backcut cm or two above notch...

 

[John Ellison]

Good post SMII.
I think the gist of what most guys are saying is that there is more than one way to skin a cat. Think of the wide variety of terrain and trees all across the country.
Again, I believe that I would enjoy those courses and know that I would learn some new things. But, there are some things that I just could not ever agree with. The downplaying of looking up and the one method of falling only. Besides the obvious problems of those methods on the west co.

Here is something that I keep picturing and is a fairly common ocurance for me and I am sure would be for lots of the areas in the east and south. You are going to fall a fair size pine tree and it is limb heavy on just one side and that is the direction you want it to go. The limbs are pretty much at 90 deg. to the stem. The wide open face means its going to spear its limbs in to the ground and sit there around five to eight feet in the air, and probably still attached to the stump, so everything is really loaded up. Doable but why not a 45% face so the limbs have time to turn the tree and you can go ahead normally? What if the same tree has a broken rotten top that leans heavily the other direction and looks like it is barely attached? Are you going with the jarring bore cut and release? I know the faller has to asses each situation as he comes to it but surely they have to say there are times the bore cut and release should not be used.

To tell on myself, I brought west co. methods here and was too dumb and harded to change for quite awhile. Not safety concerns but just doing things that were needed in Ak. but werent needed here. When in Rome,bla bla bla, unless they are doing it totally wrong.
Just read another post and have to add this. When I first came here I used a Humboldt on the first pine I came to. I run what I brung so I had an 066/32" . To sweep that bar past the ground my stump ended up being about two feet high. The skidder operator was watching me and said" I can see you know what you are doing but your going to have to figure out some way to get your stumps lower"

 

[smokechase II]

stories

I'd tell stories on myself but I'm not sure the AS server has the capacity.

Well, just one.

There I was, wind, rocks and snags, a rookie for a swamper and nearly out of gas. This no BS. (What is the difference between a fairy tale and a war story? BS versus once upon a time.)

Actually, I was dropping a very heavy leaning green large Ponderosa last summer. Hazard tree leaning over a paved road. My partner said he wouldn't do it and he is a young very gifted and skilled guy. I went off a peed first.

Chained the tree, decent face, face center bored, bore cut the back, good right angle escape etc. Man when that thing popped it shook the ground and sent a Wil-e-coyote shiver up through my spine. If the AS crowd could have seen a video of this fat old bald guy high stepping it stage left with new vigor, that would have been a belly laugh.

I did everything right. But I was still out of my league. We should have brought in a local pro.

 

[GASoline71]

The old crabby S.O.B. that I learned most of my falling from always said... "Damn it rookie... you gotta look up to look out!" He would kick me right square in the a$$ if I didn't look up once in awhile through the 3 cuts.

"Widowmakers are called so for a reason rookie..." This man was full of those little tid-bits.

Glad I was trained the way I was... Thanks Buck!

Gary

 

[BC_Logger]

the one problem here is that theres people here who log on the west coast and the east coast. You cant use east coast falling practices on the west
Different spices different terain differnt methods


I was taught falling by my uncle who was a 20 year production faller
and just like Gasoline I too had the" look up to look out"and plan your fall speach

chainsawworld here in BC in order to become a faller for logging operations
you need to be certified this means schooling and then a 6 month practical

Garrit

 

[chainsawworld]

im sorry boboak. i thought your question was is the backcut higher then the face cut. the backcut and bottom of the face are level(flat and level stump) if i can ill take a photo and post it marty

 

[stihl 440]

calm!!!

I think everybody needs to calm down! Atleast they are making a flat backcut. And downcut first on notch that's #1. I use GOL practices and I like em'. :rockn:

 

[tek9tim]

And downcut first on notch that's #1.

Nope. I make my gunning cut first. Whole lot easier to get your face pointed where you want it.

 

[smokechase II]

Keep it simple

Doing the 'flat' gunning cut first can make it very easy.
You get the ability to set your dawgs where the undercut is going to finish on your side of the tree. Then just bring the bar around to where the saws sights point to just slightly to the side of the tree that you are on. Stop and pull your bar out while keeping the outer lower dawg in the tree. Now aim your saw to complete the top-angled portion of the undercut. The near side is for sure right on for meeting the corner without looking at it a bit. (This for conventional face cuts)

Why is this worth mentioning? Keep it simple, make it easy and you can look up more and spend less time in the danger zone.

A flaw of using either of the non-level open face cuts for sighting, from the standpoint of vertical situational awareness, is that the saw must be level for the sights to work.

Take your saws powerhead and hold it with the bar pointing up at 45 degrees and also rotate the head where it is at a 45º to your body. (Pitch yaw stuff). Note how the sight on the side and the sight on the powerhead top point two different directions. The faller must bring the saw/bar into level for both sights to point at the same spot. This subtle difference could be why some of you open face cutters aren't hitting your target precisely. Mostly my point here is that what is more difficult and requires concentration down low can hurt the faller by what is above. Keep it simple.

One way to somewhat mitigate this difficulty with open face cutting is to make your bottom flat cut first and make it level. For the most part, increasing you angle from 60% to 90 is not going to buy you that much, if anything at all.
Note the Norwegian diagram in my earlier post #105.

Also, when accuracy is really important, get down and sight from behind like this photo. Sighting from above is poor for accuracy and takes the cutter further away from looking back up.

 

[Cedarkerf]

opcorn: opcorn:

 

[clearance]

http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache...uation.pdf+swanson+humbolt&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2 Check out 18A, its has a table for the hieght of the bcakcut above the undercut, in pro falling, that is.

 

[SRT-Tech]

someone want to show me these gunsights on the saw? cuz i have never seen one yet....then and again i do fall with a 28 year old Husky 61, or a double bit axe, or a misery whip..........:biggrinbounce2:

 

[Cedarkerf]

someone want to show me these gunsights on the saw? cuz i have never seen one yet....then and again i do fall with a 28 year old Husky 61, or a double bit axe, or a misery whip..........:biggrinbounce2:

If you have a chance to look at a newer stihl its a raised line about half way back on the starter housing goes across the top of cylinder down onto the clutch cover. When new its painted black.

 

[Tree Sling'r]

We need help!
Got four Cat 528 skidders, 2 D7s (line cats) and 2 hi-track 525 D5s on our azzes - just showered off the yellow paint on my bottom.
Any of you book readers and OSHA marks need a job?
Be sure to bring all your PPE - you may need to get a bar bigger than 20".
Oh, yeah it is fairly steep too - the gas jugs and back packs won't even stay on the hill, the rattle snakes are out too.
Make sure your insurance company knows you will be flying out west, and like I said bring you books.
Did I mention it was steep?

 

[Gologit]

We need help!
Got four Cat 528 skidders, 2 D7s (line cats) and 2 hi-track 525 D5s on our azzes - just showered off the yellow paint on my bottom.
Any of you book readers and OSHA marks need a job?
Be sure to bring all your PPE - you may need to get a bar bigger than 20".
Oh, yeah it is fairly steep too - the gas jugs and back packs won't even stay on the hill, the rattle snakes are out too.
Make sure your insurance company knows you will be flying out west, and like I said bring you books.
Did I mention it was steep?

You back up on Jarbo Gap at Rag Dump again? Or did you find steep ground closer to home?