The idea is to eliminate jobs, not create them.
Look up the broken window fallacy.
http://www.progress.org/archive/fold136.htm
Look up the broken window fallacy.
http://www.progress.org/archive/fold136.htm
The Fly and wire core fliplines
- Thread starter Froggy
- Start date
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Does anyone find the surface friction of the Fly to be higher than the 16 strand ropes. I like the rope especially for footlocking but climbing I feel the surface friction eliminates the weight issue because it does not drag thru the tree as well. During rec. climbing in preperation for ITCC I have climbed the same route same tree same friction saver. I used 16 strand and the Fly the 16 strand followes the fly does not. I have to pull the fly so it is under me to contiue to decend or go out on a limb. The 16 strand drags right along and I do not have to pull any rope saveing time and energy. Anyone else experienced this?
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
Interesting, i was told it was designed to reduce friction on the branch.
NickfromWI
Addicted to ArboristSite
surface contact area
I don't know if this is the way it really is, but when looking at the size of the strands of the rope, it seems that smaller strands equals more area at the surface to contact the tree or friction-hitch. If a line contacts an arch (i think this is called a tangent...i don't remember my geometry well enough). In this hypothesis, the strands are the arcs and the tree contacting it is the line (maybe the tangent?) It only contacts in one tiny spot. If there are 24 tiny spots, that would be more friction that 12 or 16.
However, I don't think it's that easy. Being made up of 24 smaller strands, the Fly's profile more closely resembles a circle than it's lower-stranded counterparts. A twelve strand line, when weighted, tends to take on a hexagonal shape. This hexagon might be the part that is coming in contact with the tree. If that is the case, the hexagon would have more surface area than would the circle.
So what's right? There was mention (from Mike Maas & Co.) that I sometimes confuse you guys. This might be one of those times! In this example, it might just be the case that there are so many other factors to consider (the squishyness of the rope, for example) that I might be looking to closely at the rope.
Something to think about while you're eating dinner.
love
nick
I don't know if this is the way it really is, but when looking at the size of the strands of the rope, it seems that smaller strands equals more area at the surface to contact the tree or friction-hitch. If a line contacts an arch (i think this is called a tangent...i don't remember my geometry well enough). In this hypothesis, the strands are the arcs and the tree contacting it is the line (maybe the tangent?) It only contacts in one tiny spot. If there are 24 tiny spots, that would be more friction that 12 or 16.
However, I don't think it's that easy. Being made up of 24 smaller strands, the Fly's profile more closely resembles a circle than it's lower-stranded counterparts. A twelve strand line, when weighted, tends to take on a hexagonal shape. This hexagon might be the part that is coming in contact with the tree. If that is the case, the hexagon would have more surface area than would the circle.
So what's right? There was mention (from Mike Maas & Co.) that I sometimes confuse you guys. This might be one of those times! In this example, it might just be the case that there are so many other factors to consider (the squishyness of the rope, for example) that I might be looking to closely at the rope.
Something to think about while you're eating dinner.
love
nick
ramanujan
ArboristSite Operative
the ease with which a rope follows you through a tree also has to do with the "hand" or how easy it drapes itself around an object. though i have not climbed with the Fly it seems to me that it is less stiff than most 16 strand arbo lines, and therefore would not follow through a tree as well, at least in that respect.
Kneejerk Bombas
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Although hand and surface friction may affect how the rope follow you, the weight of the tail is the most important factor.
If you were really curious you could hang a 50 foot (or any length) hank of two different ropes over a branch and pull the tail with an accurate fishing scale. My bet is the light weight of the fly compared to 1/2" ropes would be the main factor in why it would pull with less effort.
If you were really curious you could hang a 50 foot (or any length) hank of two different ropes over a branch and pull the tail with an accurate fishing scale. My bet is the light weight of the fly compared to 1/2" ropes would be the main factor in why it would pull with less effort.
Tom Dunlap
Addicted to ArboristSite
I'm with Mike on this one.
I haven't felt any extra friction like Todd points out. My style of climbing doesn't have the rope tailing through too many limbs behind me though.
Tom
I haven't felt any extra friction like Todd points out. My style of climbing doesn't have the rope tailing through too many limbs behind me though.
Tom
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
I've taken to climbing on a very short (60 ft) rope most of the time, forgoing the 150 hank as more of an entry line.
I change my TIP often and feel this is more efficient then pulling 120-150 ft through the tree allthe time.
Doing a mental cost benefit, IMO it is worth the risk of a more difficult rescue.
My just be a fase i'm going through right now, since all I have is a 60 and a 150 after a gorundie cut my old 120.
I change my TIP often and feel this is more efficient then pulling 120-150 ft through the tree allthe time.
Doing a mental cost benefit, IMO it is worth the risk of a more difficult rescue.
My just be a fase i'm going through right now, since all I have is a 60 and a 150 after a gorundie cut my old 120.
Mahk
ArboristSite Member
tjk
I agree with Tom and Mike. If lower surface friction means that your rope slides more easily on any branch that your tail goes over then it will tend to slide to whichever side of the branch has more rope hanging on it. That is if you are 50 feet off the ground in a tree and twenty feet out on a limb (with the rope trailing 20 feet back to the trunk, through a crotch and then 50 feet down to the ground) then a rope with lower surface friction will slide more easily towards the fifity feet of rope hanging straight to the ground than to the 20 feet between you and the crotch. A rope with higher surface friction would have more drag on the crotch. This would make it more difficult for you to drag it up and over the limb, but the extra friction would also help keep it on your side of the crotch. The angle of the rope between you and the crotch would also be a factor in this. Imagine having the tail of your rope go through a pulley at the crotch instead of over the crotch (again fifty feet off the ground). If you were walking on a horizontal limb you would probably have to pull rope even if you went out fifty feet or more because of the angle of the rope.
I guess every improvement has some type of tradeoff.
Mahk
I agree with Tom and Mike. If lower surface friction means that your rope slides more easily on any branch that your tail goes over then it will tend to slide to whichever side of the branch has more rope hanging on it. That is if you are 50 feet off the ground in a tree and twenty feet out on a limb (with the rope trailing 20 feet back to the trunk, through a crotch and then 50 feet down to the ground) then a rope with lower surface friction will slide more easily towards the fifity feet of rope hanging straight to the ground than to the 20 feet between you and the crotch. A rope with higher surface friction would have more drag on the crotch. This would make it more difficult for you to drag it up and over the limb, but the extra friction would also help keep it on your side of the crotch. The angle of the rope between you and the crotch would also be a factor in this. Imagine having the tail of your rope go through a pulley at the crotch instead of over the crotch (again fifty feet off the ground). If you were walking on a horizontal limb you would probably have to pull rope even if you went out fifty feet or more because of the angle of the rope.
I guess every improvement has some type of tradeoff.
Mahk
Mahk, that all makes sense to me. To keep the fly light it is woven very loose, and seems to pick much easier creating additional friction, witch is also affecting my hitch. If they tightened up the rope it would weigh more.Trade off I guess. Maybe if they added more wax.
Tom Dunlap
Addicted to ArboristSite
How would tightening the weave change the weight?
I haven't found that picking is that big a deal. Sure, compared to a tight rope it is a little more likely but overall, I don't even notice picking.
Tom
I haven't found that picking is that big a deal. Sure, compared to a tight rope it is a little more likely but overall, I don't even notice picking.
Tom
Stumper
One Man Band
Nice link Treetx!
NickfromWI
Addicted to ArboristSite
I agree. If you take a three pieces of small cord and braid them, once really tight, and once loose, the tight one will be shorter. So it's not the tight weave that would be making it heavier because more length was needed in the strands.
love
nick
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
Or more strands in the core to bulk the cover up.
Tighter weave will also reduce the tensil.
Tighter weave will also reduce the tensil.
NickfromWI
Addicted to ArboristSite
It also weighs more, too.
love
nick
John Paul Sanborn
Above average climber
Tighter weave makes tighter bends in the fiber so they need to up the number of fibers to make the tensil. Seems like 7000# is the benchmark for climbing line these days.
Froggy
ArboristSite Operative
Reply
Tjk you do any work in Lincon Park? I've talked to many people about the fly and all I've heard is how well it flows through the tree. Less friction and great knot control. I think after reading the posts here and going on what the climbers around here think. I'm going to give it a try.
The wirecore flipline is great for big trees and removals. For pruning I like a 10' piece of XTC. Seems to work well and easy to move through the tree. You guys make me laugh. You joke, but you still stay on the point.
Thanks,Billy
Tjk you do any work in Lincon Park? I've talked to many people about the fly and all I've heard is how well it flows through the tree. Less friction and great knot control. I think after reading the posts here and going on what the climbers around here think. I'm going to give it a try.
The wirecore flipline is great for big trees and removals. For pruning I like a 10' piece of XTC. Seems to work well and easy to move through the tree. You guys make me laugh. You joke, but you still stay on the point.
Thanks,Billy
