Odog, good to see ya
Assuming you can still count to 20 and yer hearing isn't gone?
Assuming you can still count to 20 and yer hearing isn't gone?
Unionizing?
- Thread starter northmanlogging
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Odog
ArboristSite Operative
I still have all my digits, but my hearing is getting more "selective" according to my daughters.
I've been out of town for the last few months, which has made me kinda grouchy, so I've been staying quiet.
I've been out of town for the last few months, which has made me kinda grouchy, so I've been staying quiet.
I work for the gub mint and HOO BOY are there ever some of those types around. Fortunately, there's plenty of us dirty-hands types, too. I guess technically I've got union representation but I'm not paying dues and I'm also not asking them for anything.
Yup. You have representation but can't go on strike. What that union does best is puts pressure on lawmakers when they threaten to mess with retirement benefits, salaries, etc. They have been going to bat for a very long time about firefighters and permanent seasonals. Probably still are. Otherwise, it's pretty useless.
The trouble with the gubmint is that somebody, somewhere, has done something seriously stupid so a rule was made, and sometimes a certification must be gotten. I tried to be very secretive about doing some road brushing when I had spare time. Shhhhhhh.
The trouble with the gubmint is that somebody, somewhere, has done something seriously stupid so a rule was made, and sometimes a certification must be gotten. I tried to be very secretive about doing some road brushing when I had spare time. Shhhhhhh.
That is exactly right. There are two rules that run the show, which are almost 100% contradictory but not quite, which is why it's so confusing and frustrating:
1) the stupid will be punished
2) the punishment will continue until morale improves
Skeans
Addicted to ArboristSite
Weyco still has company union sides down here on both sides of the river not sure of which union or how many crews, last year at OLC I know they had some new Tigercat stuff for the Coosbay sides.
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henrysforest
ArboristSite Lurker
I have been a union member all my life in Aus , only way to go as an employee working at a factory , fat chance of getting a raise as an individual , as long as the rich people are in control , good luck , all governments use the dividing method , slowly destroying the union movement , the capitalist system is actually the feudal system , the rich are the kings and queens and we are the peasants , the only real difference now in most western country's , is they pay us a little more , so they don't have rebellions . cheers Henry
Jhenderson
Addicted to ArboristSite
I’d shovel manure with a tea spoon before I’d pay a union rep to ride around getting paid while he told me I had to walk a picket line.
Cheers back at you Henry!
Some people could be shovelling poo with a teaspoon & paying a company for the privilege, before they worked out they needed a union
Asplundh tree trimmers organize recently here in Kentucky.
Yah, you pay dues but don't Lawyers have the BAR, doctors and dentists have the AMA. There are many trades that have group memberships that gain them representation.
Someone once said if you're not at the table when the plans are laid then you're the meal.
In all honesty, I'm not sure how this would fit into a small or single operator scenario. It's not like you're going to abuse yourself and complain about how to manage yourself, that's your wife's job.
If you want to know why Unions are important just look to history, the coal fields and mines UMWA and sweatshops, Triangle Waste Coat factory fire., Look to the Grange movement, the original "Farmers Union". When we undervalue the fruits of our labor, we diminish our neighbors as well. Many Grange Halls and membership ran parallel with Masonic Halls often using the same meeting spaces.
Why have unions failed?
1) People forget that it's about us not me. We are selfish
2) Unions have a duty to protect workers, even if they are POS. In the Marine Corps we had a phrase "police your own". That's still possible but there's procedural maneuvering to document that a termination is just and fair.
So, is it worth it? Read the history.
Yah, you pay dues but don't Lawyers have the BAR, doctors and dentists have the AMA. There are many trades that have group memberships that gain them representation.
Someone once said if you're not at the table when the plans are laid then you're the meal.
In all honesty, I'm not sure how this would fit into a small or single operator scenario. It's not like you're going to abuse yourself and complain about how to manage yourself, that's your wife's job.
If you want to know why Unions are important just look to history, the coal fields and mines UMWA and sweatshops, Triangle Waste Coat factory fire., Look to the Grange movement, the original "Farmers Union". When we undervalue the fruits of our labor, we diminish our neighbors as well. Many Grange Halls and membership ran parallel with Masonic Halls often using the same meeting spaces.
Why have unions failed?
1) People forget that it's about us not me. We are selfish
2) Unions have a duty to protect workers, even if they are POS. In the Marine Corps we had a phrase "police your own". That's still possible but there's procedural maneuvering to document that a termination is just and fair.
So, is it worth it? Read the history.
Jhenderson
Addicted to ArboristSite
The BAR and the AMA do not represent their members, they police them. As you stated a union protects the worst and bleeds the rest. I can’t wait til the whole country goes ” Right to Work”. A valuable employee will then be able to negotiate their own deal while those who just put in their time will have to settle for whatever the union provides.
More me, me, me, me
We is a long forgotten word in this country. The only thing that you'll negotiate is your way out the door because there's plenty right behind you who'll do it faster, cheaper and throw all caution to the wind.
You are a commodity, a tool to your employer and if they can go to "Labor World", the "Harbor Freight" of worker rental they'll get a cheaper tool and throw them away when you're all used up. Regardless of Union/Independant a real employer will invest in training after all, our skills and knowledge are what sets us apart. If you're "neck down" you've got a hard row to hoe in life.
We is a long forgotten word in this country. The only thing that you'll negotiate is your way out the door because there's plenty right behind you who'll do it faster, cheaper and throw all caution to the wind.
You are a commodity, a tool to your employer and if they can go to "Labor World", the "Harbor Freight" of worker rental they'll get a cheaper tool and throw them away when you're all used up. Regardless of Union/Independant a real employer will invest in training after all, our skills and knowledge are what sets us apart. If you're "neck down" you've got a hard row to hoe in life.
Jhenderson
Addicted to ArboristSite
So I should accept less than I deserve so less competent or energetic individuals can be protected by a union? Even if I agreed with your premise of me being no more than a tool( which I do not) a better tool costs more but proves it’s worth when used. Think SnapOn vs Harbor Freight. I’ve never had a problem being paid what I requested for the value I brought to an employer. Maybe you should work a little harder at being an asset rather than a liability. It’s never failed to work for me. But then again I’m sure any employer will recognize your disposition when you walk through the door and treat you accordingly.
Just joining a union work force has given me an interesting perception on things, we are a right to work business, not allowed to picket, and the union fees are minimal. The company retains complete rights over weather or not you get fired. The union can have something to say, but from past bad apples, they havent lasted. What the union does do for us, I gives the United voice for benefits and pay. We get paid a reasonable rate for being mechanics. Not high, but not low either, have average healthcare plan, and a decent retirement. Some days I feel over paid and others under paid. Just how it goes sometimes. I'm still not 100% about the union and its function, but it hasn't been a terrible thing this far. I have no experience with any other unions as this is the first I've been in on, but it largely is just a communication ambassador for the workers here. Not a whole lot else. This is a contract year so it will be interesting to see what comes of it in these odd times.
Once upon a Time, Long, LONG Ago, in a place Far, FAR Away, Unions had their place, and there was a need for them.
Now Days, the Unions often do more Schitt to the Employees, than what they are supposed to be Protecting the Employees FROM.
I was in the Teamsters (Local 162) Many years ago, convinced me that I wouldn’t want to work anywhere that needed a union
When I drove for the Foam plant, the production workers were trying to get a union in, I read a copy of the union rules and handbook, the union was a Business unto itself, it was Much more concerned about itself, than it’s Working Members (Union MANAGEMENT Staff, Now THAT was DIFFERENT). There were all kinds of ways that the union could Fine and Punish members for simply legitimately Criticizing the union, I worried much more about what the UNION might do to us than I ever did about what the company might do to us. I can Bitch and Bellyache with the Best of my Fellow drivers, and drivers are Known for their ability to B&B, that company wasn’t Perfect, but I was Hoping that it would be my retirement job, Sadly they sold the plant I worked out of.
The Union they were trying to get in was the same union that represents the Boeing Aircraft Machinists. Not to denigrate my former fellow employees, but there was NO WAY that the Union was going to get Foam Cutters the same wages as machinists producing Aircraft Components, that simply wasn’t going to happen, regardless of what the Union Promised the employees.
Thankfully, some actually READ the union rules handbook, and saw reality, and the union wasn’t voted in.
My brief experience as a union member, and reading what the union wanted from the foam plant workers was enough for me, I have no desire to enslave myself that way
Doug
Now Days, the Unions often do more Schitt to the Employees, than what they are supposed to be Protecting the Employees FROM.
I was in the Teamsters (Local 162) Many years ago, convinced me that I wouldn’t want to work anywhere that needed a union
When I drove for the Foam plant, the production workers were trying to get a union in, I read a copy of the union rules and handbook, the union was a Business unto itself, it was Much more concerned about itself, than it’s Working Members (Union MANAGEMENT Staff, Now THAT was DIFFERENT). There were all kinds of ways that the union could Fine and Punish members for simply legitimately Criticizing the union, I worried much more about what the UNION might do to us than I ever did about what the company might do to us. I can Bitch and Bellyache with the Best of my Fellow drivers, and drivers are Known for their ability to B&B, that company wasn’t Perfect, but I was Hoping that it would be my retirement job, Sadly they sold the plant I worked out of.
The Union they were trying to get in was the same union that represents the Boeing Aircraft Machinists. Not to denigrate my former fellow employees, but there was NO WAY that the Union was going to get Foam Cutters the same wages as machinists producing Aircraft Components, that simply wasn’t going to happen, regardless of what the Union Promised the employees.
Thankfully, some actually READ the union rules handbook, and saw reality, and the union wasn’t voted in.
My brief experience as a union member, and reading what the union wanted from the foam plant workers was enough for me, I have no desire to enslave myself that way
Doug
By trade I'm an Electrician. Construction, in particular Industrial Construction and Maintenance is an arena in which you've got to prove what you can do every day and at the end of that job you've got to prove it all over again on the next. Any day can be a layoff or reduction in force. I secure my place with my Knowledge, my Skills, and my can do Attidude but if there are grievances I've got representation whose got my back. I got my start with electrical theory in the USMC then further trained through the JATC Apprenticeship system, an IBEW/NECA cooperation that goes back to the end of WWII. The school that I went through was member funded, a means of passing the torch to the next generation. Think on that for a moment, member funded. All I ever had to pay for was my books, no tuition and no student debit but I can make as much or more than an Engineer with what I know and what I can do with my hands. I'm sorry than turning screws in a factory or injecting foam didn't work out but my Unions has got my back.
As stated before unions did us all huge favor, the IWW (wobblies) even the Teamsters back in the day, took a beating and lost a lot of lives to gain basic rights we don't even think about today.
However, many unions have lost sight of their original purpose, the Boeing machinist union, Teamsters, operating engineers being some of the worst offenders, they have become corporations themselves and no longer represent the workers, sure most of those guys make big money. Teamsters and Operating Engineers especially, in that they have pushed for state and national laws regarding government contracts, so they pushed the pay scale to obscene rates, and if you want to bid on a gov job, you have to pay your non union crews the same rates as the union crews, which is absolute bull ****.
As for Machinist unions et al. Machining has steadily gone automated, while the trend around here is to go union. And it comes down to large shops treating employees as numbers, produce or we'll find someone that will do the same for less. The automation is cheaper then human hands, reliable, always shows up, rarely on drugs, doesn't bitch about how much its making etc. So the writing is on the wall for the big factory workers everywhere, and has been for some time.
I'm not pro "right to work" as there is still many unions that have priorities and treat their workers very well. But I'm not pro union either, largely because my experience with union labor has been less then positive, bunch of lazy fat ***** that constantly refuse to do work because "its not in my description" drag their feet so they guarantee overtime, and in general produce **** work, cause like FU man call my union steward...
At the same time outfits like Wallmart and Amazon, desperately need union representation, pay their people **** wages, work them just enough to not get any benefits or be eligible for a raise, then if you bitch, its too the curb with ya. Meanwhile, Microsoft, that also is non union, pays very well, has all sorts of random benefits like nap rooms... (yes nap rooms). Its a complex issue
Also I might add that the big unions, like to spout off about "skilled union labor"... I'm still trying to figure out where the skills they talk about went... The unions themselves encourage laziness, not directly, but through ******** like seniority programs, so the ass hat that has been there longer gets the good pay, and is exempt from layoffs so sir ****** just bides his time doing the same dumb **** until his early retirement and fat pension kicks in, regardless of skill level, all sir ****** needs to do is show up on time and keep his mouth shut and he can ride out his 40 years of sub par work. All while being very proud of his mindless union job...
However, many unions have lost sight of their original purpose, the Boeing machinist union, Teamsters, operating engineers being some of the worst offenders, they have become corporations themselves and no longer represent the workers, sure most of those guys make big money. Teamsters and Operating Engineers especially, in that they have pushed for state and national laws regarding government contracts, so they pushed the pay scale to obscene rates, and if you want to bid on a gov job, you have to pay your non union crews the same rates as the union crews, which is absolute bull ****.
As for Machinist unions et al. Machining has steadily gone automated, while the trend around here is to go union. And it comes down to large shops treating employees as numbers, produce or we'll find someone that will do the same for less. The automation is cheaper then human hands, reliable, always shows up, rarely on drugs, doesn't bitch about how much its making etc. So the writing is on the wall for the big factory workers everywhere, and has been for some time.
I'm not pro "right to work" as there is still many unions that have priorities and treat their workers very well. But I'm not pro union either, largely because my experience with union labor has been less then positive, bunch of lazy fat ***** that constantly refuse to do work because "its not in my description" drag their feet so they guarantee overtime, and in general produce **** work, cause like FU man call my union steward...
At the same time outfits like Wallmart and Amazon, desperately need union representation, pay their people **** wages, work them just enough to not get any benefits or be eligible for a raise, then if you bitch, its too the curb with ya. Meanwhile, Microsoft, that also is non union, pays very well, has all sorts of random benefits like nap rooms... (yes nap rooms). Its a complex issue
Also I might add that the big unions, like to spout off about "skilled union labor"... I'm still trying to figure out where the skills they talk about went... The unions themselves encourage laziness, not directly, but through ******** like seniority programs, so the ass hat that has been there longer gets the good pay, and is exempt from layoffs so sir ****** just bides his time doing the same dumb **** until his early retirement and fat pension kicks in, regardless of skill level, all sir ****** needs to do is show up on time and keep his mouth shut and he can ride out his 40 years of sub par work. All while being very proud of his mindless union job...
The IBEW is one of the good ones, our local utilities are part of it, as well as any elekchicken worth the name sparky.
Though I'm not real hip on them demanding a 2 year apprenticeship, usually around here unpaid... its the unpaid part I have a problem with especially since the apprentices usually do most of the work. While the "journeyman" yells at them calls them names and ***** off the rest of the day... (at least thats been my experience...)
Unpaid?
Never heard of such a thing...
Our apprentices get paid for 100% time on the job. School time is another matter. Our Apprentices have 22 8-hr days of regular class per year and a few night/weekend sessions for their Associates in Applied Science Degree, Safety, or other specialized training. Some Lineman have specialized hands-on training that can only be accomplished in the field doing work in Sub-Stations, HighVoltage Transmission(above35Kv) or Distribution work(2,001-35Kv). I'm not familiar with their training and a portion of that may count as school but I tend to believe that their OJT is at a percentage based on what step/stage/rate they are ranked at. For our contractors, they know that certain percentage of the work is menial and matching that to an Apprentices year/rank is both appropriate and cost effective.
In short, minus school, I've ALLWAYS been paid on the job which should make OJT an even more appealing environment to learn in.
Never heard of such a thing...
Our apprentices get paid for 100% time on the job. School time is another matter. Our Apprentices have 22 8-hr days of regular class per year and a few night/weekend sessions for their Associates in Applied Science Degree, Safety, or other specialized training. Some Lineman have specialized hands-on training that can only be accomplished in the field doing work in Sub-Stations, HighVoltage Transmission(above35Kv) or Distribution work(2,001-35Kv). I'm not familiar with their training and a portion of that may count as school but I tend to believe that their OJT is at a percentage based on what step/stage/rate they are ranked at. For our contractors, they know that certain percentage of the work is menial and matching that to an Apprentices year/rank is both appropriate and cost effective.
In short, minus school, I've ALLWAYS been paid on the job which should make OJT an even more appealing environment to learn in.
