Unionizing?

[Bwildered]

Those that oppose unions & think they can individually negotiate the best deal for themselves a common skilled job , have vertually no understanding about the history of the labour market, dills like that are preyed on with glee by corporations or greedy sociopathic types, that believe everyone was put on earth to satisfy only their wants & needs to further themselves , with absolutely no consideration for anything else.
There are some absolute corrupt scumbags running unions, who aren't quite refined enough to make it into politics, like their white collar cousins, but the corrupt ones of either pool are cut from the same cloth.

 

[Woodslasher]

As stated before unions did us all huge favor, the IWW (wobblies) even the Teamsters back in the day, took a beating and lost a lot of lives to gain basic rights we don't even think about today.

However, many unions have lost sight of their original purpose, the Boeing machinist union, Teamsters, operating engineers being some of the worst offenders, they have become corporations themselves and no longer represent the workers, sure most of those guys make big money. Teamsters and Operating Engineers especially, in that they have pushed for state and national laws regarding government contracts, so they pushed the pay scale to obscene rates, and if you want to bid on a gov job, you have to pay your non union crews the same rates as the union crews, which is absolute bull ****.

I've got a neighbor who was in an Operating Engineers union in the 80's, and 90's, possibly even longer and he has stories of the union trying to screw him or other people over. There's one story where a guy my buddy worked with was welding something on a piece of equipment and his welder's power cord was too short for him to reach part of the thing he was welding, so he was pressured by the union site managers into cutting prongs off of an extension cable with the wrong plug to make it work so he could finish the job and the tractor could get back to work. At the time he didn't know that the mis-matched plugs caused in the iron deck he was working on to become electrified, and as soon as the welder arced, he was turned into a human electrical conduit. After they shut the power off so they could take him to the hospital, my buddy went to rush him to the nearest hospital but the union guys tried to get him to take the guy to a union joint to get looked over there instead. He told 'em to go to hell, this guy needs to go to proper hospital asap, even if his story will hurt the union. The guy lived, but his brain was permanently f-ed up. (This is my re-telling it based off of my memory so if there are flaws in the story, that's my fault as I know next to nothing about welding)

 

[northmanlogging]

Those that oppose unions & think they can individually negotiate the best deal for themselves a common skilled job , have vertually no understanding about the history of the labour market, dills like that are preyed on with glee by corporations or greedy sociopathic types, that believe everyone was put on earth to satisfy only their wants & needs to further themselves , with absolutely no consideration for anything else.
There are some absolute corrupt scumbags running unions, who aren't quite refined enough to make it into politics, like their white collar cousins, but the corrupt ones of either pool are cut from the same cloth.

exactly.

Just don't trust anyone in a suit. including at weddings and funerals

edit: cowboy hats too... unless they are in fact from texas or actively wrangling cattle... even then keep an eye on em... wait no F it don't trust anybody in a cowboy hat.

edit mkII: Just don't trust anyone... ever, not even your mother.

 

[madhatte]

Y'all, I gotta tell you this is the best and most civil political discussion I've seen on here in a good while, thank you and keep up the good work.

 

[Bwildered]

Presently in our country the construction Union are pushing for a 35 hr week, something white collar workers achieved decades ago , yet has been eroded away & the net gain from their loss deposited in offshore tax havens , by the fabulously über wealthy , who actually don't need anymore wealth, the not so hilarious thing is the notion that has been ingrained Into the populous by the hole system , that life should be a struggle to survive & if a group pools their resources to get a fairer deal, people who are brainwashed then start trying to bring down their own kind, it defies logic that they would support what is basically the wrong team. I'll tell you what, those at the top of the heap must thank their lucky stars they have people around like that , supporting their cause for free, to help them keep the imbalance of wealth firmly in their bank accounts.

 

[triptester]

Definition of a union, people coming together for a common purpose. People tend to only think of labor unions, but businesses have unions although they go by different names. Business associations, lake associations, subdivision associations, trade associations, oil cartels, PAC's, and political parties. All these groups have a common purpose and either directly or indirectly require dues. The same businesses that are against labor unions join together, form a union, to fight labor unions.

 

[Jhenderson]

Not exactly. Nobody is forced to join a business association, trade association, PAC, or political party in order earn a living in their chosen field or work for any particular employer.

 

[northmanlogging]

Not exactly. Nobody is forced to join a business association, trade association, PAC, or political party in order earn a living in their chosen field or work for any particular employer.

Try being a doctor, lawyer, electrician, plumber, longshoreman, ship wright (or any job building ships).

 

[Dcsco]

Some trades have highs and lows due to economic cycles. Take painters, during a contraction, people have to take other jobs. The union steals their accumulated benefits. They are shared with those that manage to stay in the trade. Iron workers do better by providing prorated benefits to those that leave the trade.

 

[Jhenderson]

Try being a doctor, lawyer, electrician, plumber, longshoreman, ship wright (or any job building ships).

For which of those careers is one required to join a trade association, business association, PAC , or political party. Be specific as to which job and which of the aforementioned groups.

 

[northmanlogging]

For which of those careers is one required to join a trade association, business association, PAC , or political party. Be specific as to which job and which of the aforementioned groups.

Doctors-AMA issues a medical license, Lawyer the BAR system, Electrician-IBEW is in charge of licenses, Plumbers have a similar union thing but I don't know the name of it, Note the State or Fed do not have any control over these licenses, but have written laws stating you need one, the only way to get one is through those associations and unions. Sure you can set up shop and get to work on your own, but to maintain your license you still need to pay union/association dues, and pass the tests administered by these associations and unions, all while being self employed.

Longshoremen and shipwrights both are dominated by unions, You simply are not allowed to waltz on down the docks and just start working for whoever, you will likely be ran out of town or worse.

For awhile in California at least machine shops had the same sort of racket going, even the owner operated outfits had to pass "union credentials" Logging outfits attempted some of this ********, but Gyppo's told them exactly where they could stick it and carried on... "sometimes a great notion" (Ken Kesey) in the book talks about this at great length, and was the premise of the entire story, the unions wanted full control of production, while the stamper clan just wanted to get to work. Part of the reason Unions in loggin went the way of spotted owls, the independent and gyppo outfits didn't care about unions cause we are getting paid on our production, not our hours, all the unions did was get in the way of production without even really benefiting the workers.

As for any trade associations, if you want to start shipping things overseas, or even really shipping things domestically, you will need to be part of some sort of association, purely for logistics, let alone access to ports, ports I might add controlled by longshoremen unions that can and will refuse to unload from non union or non association trucks/barges/boats/trains/planes/wagons, Granted I'm talking large scale shipping not a few loads of logs to a local mill, but if you want to haul say groceries across state lines... it gets complicated quickly

 

[Skeans]

Doctors-AMA issues a medical license, Lawyer the BAR system, Electrician-IBEW is in charge of licenses, Plumbers have a similar union thing but I don't know the name of it, Note the State or Fed do not have any control over these licenses, but have written laws stating you need one, the only way to get one is through those associations and unions. Sure you can set up shop and get to work on your own, but to maintain your license you still need to pay union/association dues, and pass the tests administered by these associations and unions, all while being self employed.

Longshoremen and shipwrights both are dominated by unions, You simply are not allowed to waltz on down the docks and just start working for whoever, you will likely be ran out of town or worse.

For awhile in California at least machine shops had the same sort of racket going, even the owner operated outfits had to pass "union credentials" Logging outfits attempted some of this ********, but Gyppo's told them exactly where they could stick it and carried on... "sometimes a great notion" (Ken Kesey) in the book talks about this at great length, and was the premise of the entire story, the unions wanted full control of production, while the stamper clan just wanted to get to work. Part of the reason Unions in loggin went the way of spotted owls, the independent and gyppo outfits didn't care about unions cause we are getting paid on our production, not our hours, all the unions did was get in the way of production without even really benefiting the workers.

As for any trade associations, if you want to start shipping things overseas, or even really shipping things domestically, you will need to be part of some sort of association, purely for logistics, let alone access to ports, ports I might add controlled by longshoremen unions that can and will refuse to unload from non union or non association trucks/barges/boats/trains/planes/wagons, Granted I'm talking large scale shipping not a few loads of logs to a local mill, but if you want to haul say groceries across state lines... it gets complicated quickly

At least in Oregon the state gives out licenses not the unions.


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[anlrolfe]

... Note the State or Fed do not have any control over these licenses, but have written laws stating you need one, the only way to get one is through those associations and unions.

BS - most states use Independant Testing Agencies like Pearson Vue or Pro-V testing agencies. These 3rd Party tests are accredited. If you pass the test you submit the results to the State Licensing division. If you can't pass the test you don't know your trade, it's that simple. Just because you know $#!+ runs down hill doesn't mean you're qualified to be a plumber if you don't know codes and standards for safety compliance.

but to maintain your license you still need to pay union/association dues, and pass the tests administered by these associations and unions, all while being self employed.

BS - this means that those states would have 100% Union membership and that's not the case anywhere!!!
Maintaining union affilliation And maintaining a state license are two totally seperate issues. Some Unions require that to take certain referrals(job assignments) you need to prove qualification and that typically means a state license.

As to waltzing into a job, most unions have provisions to evaluate an individual based on their job requirements and assign a job classification based on skill level. This happens of our local level on a regular basis. Often it puts the burden on an individual to perform to an expected skill level. If deficiencies are addressed opportunity may be given for additional update training and opportunity to requalify later.
My observation, to use an old phrase, "I wish I could buy 'em for what they're worth and sell 'em for what they think they're worth".

I like to ask, "Do you carry your ticket or does your ticket carry you"?

 

[Bwildered]

BS - most states use Independant Testing Agencies like Pearson Vue or Pro-V testing agencies. These 3rd Party tests are accredited. If you pass the test you submit the results to the State Licensing division. If you can't pass the test you don't know your trade, it's that simple. Just because you know $#!+ runs down hill doesn't mean you're qualified to be a plumber if you don't know codes and standards for safety compliance.


BS - this means that those states would have 100% Union membership and that's not the case anywhere!!!
Maintaining union affilliation And maintaining a state license are two totally seperate issues. Some Unions require that to take certain referrals(job assignments) you need to prove qualification and that typically means a state license.

As to waltzing into a job, most unions have provisions to evaluate an individual based on their job requirements and assign a job classification based on skill level. This happens of our local level on a regular basis. Often it puts the burden on an individual to perform to an expected skill level. If deficiencies are addressed opportunity may be given for additional update training and opportunity to requalify later.
My observation, to use an old phrase, "I wish I could buy 'em for what they're worth and sell 'em for what they think they're worth".

I like to ask, "Do you carry your ticket or does your ticket carry you"?

You can't be a practicing doctor , dentist or lawyer or engineer or a myriad of other professions without being a paid up member of the respective association, and the associations sets recommended fees & charges, it appears some have just been indoctrinated to believe that associations for blue collar workers are bad, for reasons unexplainable to those who can see the light

 

[anlrolfe]

Kind of sounds like the top tier is elitist? How does "right to work" apply to them(Doctors & Lawyers)? It doesn't....

If I wanted to be a doctor or lawyer, could I just sleep at a Motel-6
Maybe pull a Rand Paul and create my own certification group so that I can be "board certified".
Certified and Qualified don't go hand in hand.

Now let's talk about the working class and licenceure...

What would a CPA (cert pub accountant) be? After exams what organizations and training are they required to maintain? What about Electricians and Plumbers. I have to document 6hrs of continuing education to renew my license. There are many avenues that I could take in order to do this ranging from computer based, community college, contractor sponsored and various safety and code based education. None of this is union specific but I choose to complete this training through our Unions Apprenticeship school.

I believe we will see an uptick in Apprenticeship Training and that true hands-on paired with practical knowledge and theory makes the most successful tradesmen. Labor is something that can't be imported. Even if construction components were modular fabrications from China, someone's got to assemble and troubleshoot what's here.

 

[Jhenderson]

AMA is voluntary. The State issues the lic. The BAR is a nationwide licensing and enforcement agency, not an association. They have no control over what is charged for fees or compensation. After that every other example you cite is a UNION. Unions were not the subject of my last post. Business associations, PACS, and political parties were. None of which can you be forced to join in order to work. That only comes with a Union and a closed shop. Afraid you were off the mark, again.

 

[anlrolfe]

Let me say on the topic of associations and association fees, I agree that these are "DUES" regardless of what you call them.

So, what does a person get for their dues? A voice at the table. My contract has negotiated full family medical with a low deductible, HRA allowance, (dental and vision are on my nickle), retirement contribution 22% of my package rate (currently MassMutual) (this is my money, not the contractors), and top dollar on the hour.

"Associations" are typically independent and governed by the elite versus Unions who typically promote from within their working class establishment.

Associations are not bound by DOL(Dept of Labor) in the same ways Unions are. I'll leave this here because going further bounds on politics.

 

[Jhenderson]

They may be dues but they are not compulsory. You don’t have to join to work.

 

[triptester]

The lakes near my cottage have lake associations that set rules for what you can and can't do on or with your property. If you want to own property there you have to pay association fees ranging 400-600 dollars a year.
Doctors are required to join affiliated medical groups in order to use a hospital's facility.

 

[northmanlogging]

AMA is voluntary. The State issues the lic. The BAR is a nationwide licensing and enforcement agency, not an association. They have no control over what is charged for fees or compensation. After that every other example you cite is a UNION. Unions were not the subject of my last post. Business associations, PACS, and political parties were. None of which can you be forced to join in order to work. That only comes with a Union and a closed shop. Afraid you were off the mark, again.

Try practicing medicine without certification, which you can only get after a 8yrs college and 2 years internship at a hospital, hospitals are almost all union, a union at its roots is a political organization and association of like minded folks. The AMA is just a great big union, that controls who, when, and what gets done medically, right or wrong.

The Bar system is not actually covered by states, but independent lawyers elected by the Bar system, not the people of each state but by member lawyers, kinda like a union isn't it. They do in fact control membership fees.

Business associations are pretty much just for politics, usually locally focused politics, for local usually retail businesses to address city/county councils, and no you are not required to join these, as they are voluntary, which is why I didn't mention them before. There are larger asso. such as the American Loggers Council, or like I hinted at before there is one for shipping/trucking but names... I'm sure the Airlines have one too.

As for Doctors Lawyers, Plumbers, Elechickens, and I'm sure a few more, they all have required tests of some sort to be licensed, that test almost always requires X years of internship, an internship that can only be attained from a UNION, then the test which UNIONS pushed for is GRADED BY THE UNION, and then sent on to the state for final certification, which is just slip of paper with fancy signatures.

Not actually sure what you are getting at as far as PACS being non political, cause I understand it to mean Political Action Committees

So yeah to be any one of the things I've mentioned, you need to be in a union, associations being unions with a bigger word, not necessarily a "closed shop" in the industrial sense, but you sure as **** are not going to just bang a sign on your door saying come on in for a discount rectal exam.