Unionizing?

[Jhenderson]

Do a little more research.
You don’t have to join the AMA to practice medicine. Period. membership is VOLUNTARY. States issue licenses, not the AMA. Understand?
Plumbers and electricians need not apprentice with a union. They only need to show X number of hrs working under a licensed employer before being allowed to test. That test is administered by the licensing state.
The BAR isn’t a union. They don’t control employment, working conditions, salary, benefits, retirement, health and welfare, etc. Their sole reason for existence is uniform discipline, and enforcement of a code of ethics, nationwide. Discipline and ethics. Does that sound like a union?
Where exactly did I say PACS weren’t political? Please highlight that entry. I did say you needn’t join one or any political party in order to work.

 

[northmanlogging]

Do a little more research.
You don’t have to join the AMA to practice medicine. Period. membership is VOLUNTARY. States issue licenses, not the AMA. Understand?
Plumbers and electricians need not apprentice with a union. They only need to show X number of hrs working under a licensed employer before being allowed to test. That test is administered by the licensing state.
The BAR isn’t a union. They don’t control employment, working conditions, salary, benefits, retirement, health and welfare, etc. Their sole reason for existence is uniform discipline, and enforcement of a code of ethics, nationwide. Discipline and ethics. Does that sound like a union?
Where exactly did I say PACS weren’t political? Please highlight that entry. I did say you needn’t join one or any political party in order to work.

You are doing that thing again where you don't pay attention to the answers given, or moving the goal post, its irritating.
So I'm not going to repeat myself for a third time.

 

[Bwildered]

Try practicing medicine without certification, which you can only get after a 8yrs college and 2 years internship at a hospital, hospitals are almost all union, a union at its roots is a political organization and association of like minded folks. The AMA is just a great big union, that controls who, when, and what gets done medically, right or wrong.

The Bar system is not actually covered by states, but independent lawyers elected by the Bar system, not the people of each state but by member lawyers, kinda like a union isn't it. They do in fact control membership fees.

Business associations are pretty much just for politics, usually locally focused politics, for local usually retail businesses to address city/county councils, and no you are not required to join these, as they are voluntary, which is why I didn't mention them before. There are larger asso. such as the American Loggers Council, or like I hinted at before there is one for shipping/trucking but names... I'm sure the Airlines have one too.

As for Doctors Lawyers, Plumbers, Elechickens, and I'm sure a few more, they all have required tests of some sort to be licensed, that test almost always requires X years of internship, an internship that can only be attained from a UNION, then the test which UNIONS pushed for is GRADED BY THE UNION, and then sent on to the state for final certification, which is just slip of paper with fancy signatures.

Not actually sure what you are getting at as far as PACS being non political, cause I understand it to mean Political Action Committees

So yeah to be any one of the things I've mentioned, you need to be in a union, associations being unions with a bigger word, not necessarily a "closed shop" in the industrial sense, but you sure as **** are not going to just bang a sign on your door saying come on in for a discount rectal exam.

In our country the government does not regulate doctors, the only thing they can do is lock them up if they purposely break the law, the government tried to regulate them but they the doctors voted & their AMA told the government to go take a flying jump, the government set limitations on Medicare benefit payments, but doctors charge at least double those set amounts, all because they stick together with their association (Union) & don't sell out to the lowest bidder like all the twits do in a race to the bottom.

 

[Jhenderson]

I paid PARTICULAR ATTENTION to your answers. There’s a difference between opinion and fact. That’s why I posted. I moved nothing . I’m just holding you to the truth. Does that get in your way? Is that’s what’s irritating? The FACTS about the AMA? Or maybe about State licensing, not union licensing? Now point out where I said a PAC wasn’t political.

 

[Jhenderson]

Your silence speaks volumes.

 

[northmanlogging]

Your silence speaks volumes.

winters are a tough time for you aren't they. I've explained my answers, repeatedly, you simply don't understand, refuse to learn, or are illiterate. We done?

 

[Jhenderson]

No, we’re not. 1st, Point out where I said a PAC wasn’t political. You claimed it, now show it. Ignoring your own statements won’t make them go away. Next you can explain how VOLUNTARY admission into the AMA has anything to do with a State issued medical license. That would be Each State issues it’s own medical licenses. Something you obviously didn’t understand. After that explain how training under a licensed ( non union) electrician or plumber in order to qualify to take a State issued test has anything to do with a union. After that you can explain how a disciplinary and certification ( BAR Exam) organization that has NO CONTROL over employment, hiring, firing, health and welfare, wages, or working conditions is a union. You’ve explained NOTHING. You’ve only given uninformed opinions without any rational thought as to their absurdity.
Everybody is eagerly awaiting your learned response!

 

[Bwildered]

People that parrot the union/association thing is bad, are really just indoctrinated puppets, working for free for the other side, take a look at your nations debt clock, nearly dollar for dollar your nations profits are pouring into the pockets of the Uber wealthy, the decline of unions and membership aligns perfectly with the transfer of money which used to go to workers, the selfish self centred ones are so easily divided and controlled, and are insanely proud of being the mechanism of the decline, I was of the understanding that forced union membership ( closed shop) was illegal in most of the civilised world, maybe the mafioso still has a stranglehold on your system

 

[northmanlogging]

People that parrot the union/association thing is bad, are really just indoctrinated puppets, working for free for the other side, take a look at your nations debt clock, nearly dollar for dollar your nations profits are pouring into the pockets of the Uber wealthy, the decline of unions and membership aligns perfectly with the transfer of money which used to go to workers, the selfish self centred ones are so easily divided and controlled, and are insanely proud of being the mechanism of the decline

See now, unions and collective bargaining isn't necessarily a bad thing, I just believe, and I'm not alone that some, not all, unions/associations etc have gotten too much power and have lost track of their original purpose. Especially those that evolved from the old guild system of feudal Europe. They no longer represent the workers, and are running for profit of the union.

I also believe that many proud union members, are just greedy, lazy, unimaginative cads, that are merely cogs in the wheel of industry, who have somehow figured out a way to vote for a raise every 3-7 years. While these very people do need union representation because of the reasons already mentioned.

Now in much of the world, including the USA far to many workers accept what is offered and never strive to better themselves beyond what the boss man gives them, which feeds right into the corporate greed. I think a big reason for this is that union mentality of keep your head down and we'll get a raise in do time, which only works if you're actually in a union, which for many their parents were/are so they taught the kids to not make waves and stick it out, which is no longer true, it doesn't get better unless you do something about it.

Do I think unionization is the way forward in reversing the trend of big money getting bigger, and the poor getting poorer, maybe, but frankly I think its already played its course in that most manufacturing jobs have been automated, or sent overseas. Having a bunch of union dicks going on strike to demand better pay, is merely incentive for the corporate scum to send jobs overseas or spend more money on automation.

We are at a tipping point, where labor is soon becoming a non commodity, and corporate scum are controlling more then their fair share of money and power. And short of a mass die off, or some very drastic law changes, I don't see it getting better anytime soon.

All of us union/non union/self employed/independent etc ad nauseum have agreed to trade our time and energy for some sort of compensation, sadly many have stopped demanding that compensation to be fair, and for many there is no choice but to take what is offered. We as a society need to remember that our time and effort has value, if that value is not met, then our time and effort is better off spent somewhere else.

 

[Bwildered]

See now, unions and collective bargaining isn't necessarily a bad thing, I just believe, and I'm not alone that some, not all, unions/associations etc have gotten too much power and have lost track of their original purpose. Especially those that evolved from the old guild system of feudal Europe. They no longer represent the workers, and are running for profit of the union.

I also believe that many proud union members, are just greedy, lazy, unimaginative cads, that are merely cogs in the wheel of industry, who have somehow figured out a way to vote for a raise every 3-7 years. While these very people do need union representation because of the reasons already mentioned.

Now in much of the world, including the USA far to many workers accept what is offered and never strive to better themselves beyond what the boss man gives them, which feeds right into the corporate greed. I think a big reason for this is that union mentality of keep your head down and we'll get a raise in do time, which only works if you're actually in a union, which for many their parents were/are so they taught the kids to not make waves and stick it out, which is no longer true, it doesn't get better unless you do something about it.

Do I think unionization is the way forward in reversing the trend of big money getting bigger, and the poor getting poorer, maybe, but frankly I think its already played its course in that most manufacturing jobs have been automated, or sent overseas. Having a bunch of union dicks going on strike to demand better pay, is merely incentive for the corporate scum to send jobs overseas or spend more money on automation.

We are at a tipping point, where labor is soon becoming a non commodity, and corporate scum are controlling more then their fair share of money and power. And short of a mass die off, or some very drastic law changes, I don't see it getting better anytime soon.

All of us union/non union/self employed/independent etc ad nauseum have agreed to trade our time and energy for some sort of compensation, sadly many have stopped demanding that compensation to be fair, and for many there is no choice but to take what is offered. We as a society need to remember that our time and effort has value, if that value is not met, then our time and effort is better off spent somewhere else.

The workers have been manoeuvred into a position of outright dependency on the next pay check, if it doesn't come, they are up ***** creek without a paddle, because in real terms their wage growth hasn't kept up with inflation & all other living expenses, home ownership is going down because its unaffordable for a growing majority of the working class, which are now classified as the working poor.
Sure some unions get overly greedy & stupid, it's human nature , but basically they have been formed to combat greed & the sociopaths of those further up the food chain, who in some cases wouldn't be perturbed if the workers & their family's lived in cardboard boxes outside the gates of their factories & could survive on a bowl of rice a day.

 

[Jhenderson]

Ignoring your failure to back up your accusations and statements won’t make them go away. Of course ,it’s not the first time you’ve made declarations without any knowledge. You’ve got a habit of this. Remember your false statements about Game of Logging? You had never even read the syllabus, let alone taken the course but that didn’t stop you from spreading lies about it. Keep on dodging. I’ll keep on reminding you.

 

[northmanlogging]

The workers have been manoeuvred into a position of outright dependency on the next pay check, if it doesn't come, they are up ***** creek without a paddle, because in real terms their wage growth hasn't kept up with inflation & all other living expenses, home ownership is going down because its unaffordable for a growing majority of the working class, which are now classified as the working poor.
Sure some unions get overly greedy & stupid, it's human nature , but basically they have been formed to combat greed & the sociopaths of those further up the food chain, who in some cases wouldn't be perturbed if the workers & their family's lived in cardboard boxes outside the gates of their factories & could survive on a bowl of rice a day.

while true, the blame rests on the greedy unions to some extent, in the 1970's and 80's many unions pushed for lavish wages and benefits, things the companies they worked for simply could not afford, something unions need to take into account before striking BTW, so lots of shops and mostly mines, shut down for upwards of years until the unions dissolved.

Ole Ronny Reagan didn't help by quashing several unions by Presidential order, Margret Thatcher did much the same in Jolly Ole,

Wages have been stagnant ever since, while inflation has sky rocketed. Its to the point now were most folks don't even have a months savings set aside, couple that with housing being more on demand then ever, its not a good look.

 

[northmanlogging]

Ignoring your failure to back up your accusations and statements won’t make them go away. Of course ,it’s not the first time you’ve made declarations without any knowledge. You’ve got a habit of this. Remember your false statements about Game of Logging? You had never even read the syllabus, let alone taken the course but that didn’t stop you from spreading lies about it. Keep on dodging. I’ll keep on reminding you.

your confusing ignoring with dodging.

As for GOL, I maintain my stance that teaching to bore cut every tree is stupid, while that may not be the aim, its what is garnered by most "students" of GOL, Few if any pick up on the purpose of the program which is to teach folks to be aware of the dangers, so they don their george jetson space helmets, kevlar space suit, throw their backs out trying to start a saw while standing on it, and still attack a tree like a boy scout on meth. But I'm sure its a very good program for people who don't belong in the woods.

 

[Jhenderson]

Your obviously dodging when you answer only part of a post. What you’re ignoring are YOUR false statements on the AMA, IBEW, BAR, plumbers and pipe fitters union, and my stance on PACs. Go ahead, pretend you never wrote any of that foolishness. It’s all here in print for eternity.

 

[anlrolfe]

Well, that was going good right up until it wasn't....

 

[madhatte]

GOL arguments haven't showed up in here in awhile, this oughta be good.

 

[windthrown]

How can you separate unions and politics? You simply cannot.

I was in one union once. AFL-CIO. Waste of space do nothing union people with seniority got the best jobs. Also they could not be fired, no matter how much they forked things up. Same as the union stewards; untouchable. Even if they called in sick every other day. "Go slow" was the constant union mantra. Later when I was working at GD in Sandy Eggo we engineers voted ourselves out of the stupid union there. That was so we could actually get something done! It happened right after I was hired so I did not have to join. There were 4 other unions there on that campus and they were ALWAYS one on strike or negotiating a contract or threatening to walk out. They used to bully us and rant at us in the parking lot. Stand in front of our cars so we could not leave, and that kind of crap. We could not do a hundred and one different things and we had to go through the union staff for all kinds of stuff, including taking a circuit board from one side of the lab to the other. If we dared do anything ourselves, grievances were filed. It was all about them sucking the company and the government dry. Insane rules. Insane demands. Insane benefits. Here in Portland the unions screwed themselves out of the dockyard jobs. They demanded INSANE wages (like $100 grand a year for longshoremen), so what happened? The last container shipping line simply left Portland in 2016 not to return until one South Korea company came back last year, but only once a week. So the roads here are clogged up with trucks to cover for the shipping demand. What a great idea that was to demand insane wages and force the shipping out of The Port of Portland! Way to go unions!

I have no time for unions. They are a complete waste of everything. Time, money, people, taxes, management, skills, etc. etc. Completely useless in my experience. Worse than useless in the case of GD and the Port of Portland. A great system to force US companies to move jobs overseas.

 

[Bwildered]

How can you separate unions and politics? You simply cannot.

I was in one union once. AFL-CIO. Waste of space do nothing union people with seniority got the best jobs. Also they could not be fired, no matter how much they forked things up. Same as the union stewards; untouchable. Even if they called in sick every other day. "Go slow" was the constant union mantra. Later when I was working at GD in Sandy Eggo we engineers voted ourselves out of the stupid union there. That was so we could actually get something done! It happened right after I was hired so I did not have to join. There were 4 other unions there on that campus and they were ALWAYS one on strike or negotiating a contract or threatening to walk out. They used to bully us and rant at us in the parking lot. Stand in front of our cars so we could not leave, and that kind of crap. We could not do a hundred and one different things and we had to go through the union staff for all kinds of stuff, including taking a circuit board from one side of the lab to the other. If we dared do anything ourselves, grievances were filed. It was all about them sucking the company and the government dry. Insane rules. Insane demands. Insane benefits. Here in Portland the unions screwed themselves out of the dockyard jobs. They demanded INSANE wages (like $100 grand a year for longshoremen), so what happened? The last container shipping line simply left Portland in 2016 not to return until one South Korea company came back last year, but only once a week. So the roads here are clogged up with trucks to cover for the shipping demand. What a great idea that was to demand insane wages and force the shipping out of The Port of Portland! Way to go unions!

I have no time for unions. They are a complete waste of everything. Time, money, people, taxes, management, skills, etc. etc. Completely useless in my experience. Worse than useless in the case of GD and the Port of Portland. A great system to force US companies to move jobs overseas.

Unions or associations wouldn't be needed in a perfect world where employers were fair, honourable & equitable

 

[sawfun]

They may be dues but they are not compulsory. You don’t have to join to work.

You sure have to join the union where I work period. No you can elect to give the money you would pay in dues to a legit non-profit, as long as you show proof.

 

[Jhenderson]

Review that post( 47) in its entirety. I was referring to trade associations , business associations, PACS, or political parties, not unions. I’m hoping that unlike another poster here, you’re bright enough to tell the difference between unions and the others that were mentioned.