Why would anyone run 100 to 1 premix?

[huskystihl]

Here is a test put out by Amsoil. It gets merit for how they set it up. Assuming they had an unbiased company determine 'wear', then it seems to be a pretty nice little study. You'll have to zoom in to read the smaller fonts. Sorry, this is the best copy I could get my hands on.

I'm kind of sold on it if you look at my post running another syntetic, plus it's half the cost.

 

[sbhooper]

Good post, Wildknight. I was going to post that after I got it in the magazine, but I was not sure how to scan it in.

 

[Shagbark]

I run the Sabre Professional at 3oz to 2 gallons of premium no ethanol fuel. It calculates out to 82:1. It runs in the saws, backpack blower, weed whacker, everything 2 stroke. Never a problem. The chemical engineering that creates a 2 stroke oil today is far more capable than the oil technology of years past. I think that it is myopic to think we know more than the chemists about the capabilites of the oils they engineer. I do know that economics dictates that if any mix ratio recommendation by the oil manufacturer destroyed equipment, the product would not be on the market long.
The best oil and mix ratio is the one that you have confidence in and keeps your equipment making $$$$$$.

 

[mowoodchopper]

I can show you an independent test! Not done by a oil company but by a engine builder, that shows a high performance 2 stroke ran on 100:1 amsoil!
It made less power than 32 and 40 to 1 and also had scoring on the piston when they tore it down!
Also I agree on the new oils being way better and the tech being better now but Klotz does not recommend 100:1 in anything!

 

[tdi-rick]

Here is a test put out by Amsoil. It gets merit for how they set it up. Assuming they had an unbiased company determine 'wear', then it seems to be a pretty nice little study. You'll have to zoom in to read the smaller fonts. Sorry, this is the best copy I could get my hands on.

As I said in the Amsoil thread, it's only comparing a mineral based oil to a full synthetic. It would have more credibility if they used Stihl HP Ultra at 50:1 vs Saber, and possibly threw in some very good synthetic race oils at 50:1 too, but i wont hold my breath....

Here's my take on 100:1.

It started out as a marketing exercise to show off the merits of their oil as OPE make relatively small specific power outputs.
Yes, they are air cooled and yes they often cook from lack of maintenance, but they aren't making 25HP out of 100cc either, which is the average kart engine these days, and which demand a mix ratio of 18-25:1 with the best race oils.

100:1 is doable in OPE, if you load the oil with anti-scuff and AW/EP additives.
This is fine if it allows you to use that ratio, but at the end of the day you still need oil to provide a film for hydrodynamic lubrication. This is what keeps metal surfaces apart. The additives are there for when hydrodynamic lubrication breaks down. Load an oil up with additives, we end up with less base oil.
Now I have no idea what the %'s are for base oils to additives in two stroke oils, I only know rough figures from four strokes and they tend to range from 18 up to 25% of the total volume of oil, including carrier oils.
This is dependent on the quality of your bases and what exactly you are trying to achieve with your oil.
In synthetic two stroke brews, the additives are mostly responsible for the build up left behind, and metallic ash type additives are generally the best/cheapest AW/detergent additives too. (although the good blenders try to use an ashless additive package in two stroke oils)

For me, 50:1 is the absolute 'leanest' mix ratio I would use, but I'd be a little lairy at using Sabre at 50:1 as the additive package is designed for 100:1 so there is potential to have more deposits in the chamber than a comparable oil that's formulated to run at 50:1.

Just my A$0.02

 

[rupedoggy]

"Seriously, if Husqvarna prints 50:1 in their manual, pretty sure that's not an opinion. What do the manufacturer's know anyways?"

That just makes me laugh! Manufacturer's made the aluminum cylinder Vega, Aluminum wiring for houses, DDT, Lead paint and gasoline, thalidomide (sp?), and a lot of other things!
I think the saw manufacturer's know this:
1) They make more money on parts than on selling saws.
2) If saws just make it past the warranty that is all they want. (example is the pig tail gas line of Huskys for the last few years)
3) They have to make regulatory agencies happy and small exhaust holes, non-adjustable needle valves on carburetors and 50 or 100/1 burn hot and meet the requirements.

I know this. Heat is an enemy of two stroke engines.

 

[wigglesworth]

"Seriously, if Husqvarna prints 50:1 in their manual, pretty sure that's not an opinion. What do the manufacturer's know anyways?"

That just makes me laugh! Manufacturer's made the aluminum cylinder Vega, Aluminum wiring for houses, DDT, Lead paint and gasoline, thalidomide (sp?), and a lot of other things!
I think the saw manufacturer's know this:
1) They make more money on parts than on selling saws.
2) If saws just make it past the warranty that is all they want. (example is the pig tail gas line of Huskys for the last few years)
3) They have to make regulatory agencies happy and small exhaust holes, non-adjustable needle valves on carburetors and 50 or 100/1 burn hot and meet the requirements.

I know this. Heat is an enemy of two stroke engines.

:agree2: Whats not to trust from the engineer's that invented aluminum wire. I worked as an electrician for 8 years. I cannot count how many times I saw aluminum wire melt down to the point of a fire or burn in two completly and sit there and arc together. Mobile homes were the worst. Id say MR. EPA has more to do with 100:1 than anything else. Before long, it will be a mandated that we must all run 100:1 or face 10K fine of some sort. LOL

 

[sbhooper]

You may be right under the current environment, but Amsoil started with 100:1 long before the epa was concerned about two-cycle engines.

 

[chucker]

? 100:1 only makes good for lawn mower gas, maybe keep the valves cool hey ? lol but then again it could help to chase away the minnesota state bird!!????????????????????????????????????????

 

[huskystihl]

I'm using amsoil now but not at 100/1, more like 70/1. Haven't used it long enough to say it's the be all and end all of oils, but nothing melted down in 95 deg yesterday during a 10 hr day so I guess it's got that going for it. Then again nothing has tied up running ultra. I just switched because of the price diff.

 

[mowoodchopper]

100:1 Sucks :greenchainsaw:

 

[huskystihl]

100:1 Sucks :greenchainsaw:

It may be ok but I feel better seeing a darker blue mix. I will say that when I switched over my saws did start running richer at 70/1 than they did at 50/1 on stihl synthetic. Same thing with my yard equip as well.

 

[lawnmowertech37]

? 100:1 only makes good for lawn mower gas, maybe keep the valves cool hey ? lol but then again it could help to chase away the minnesota state bird!!????????????????????????????????????????

poor squeters

 

[oneoldbanjo]

100:1 Sucks :greenchainsaw:

I think that many people here believe that all oils are formulated the same, and they are not. Many of the oil manufacturers thin their oil down with solvents so that they are compatable with oil injection systems - the oil is thin enough to work in injection systems and can also be used as premix oil at 50:1 ratios. If you read the specifications for some of these oils they specifically state that they have added solvents or thinning agents to the product so it is compatible with injecton systems. I looked at the Viscosity Index for several oils and those that are recommended for injector systems have Kinematic Viscosity somewhere around 7.5 - 9.0 at 100 degrees C and 40 - 58 at 40 degrees C.

Amsoil Saber is not thinned down and is not recommended for injector systems. The Kinematic Viscosity of Amsoil Saber is 13.5 at 100 degrees C and 99 at 40 degrees C. It is nearly twice as thick as most oils prior to mixing. I have used Amsoil Saber and the difference when mixing is obvious as it is much thicker and pours much slower. I believe that if Amsoil added solvents (just like the other manufacturers) and told everyone to mix it at 50:1 it would be far less controversial - they are just adding less solvent and putting more oil in the same size container.

I used Amsoil Saber in my trials motorcycle, weed eater and leaf blower at 100:1 and it works great and burns very clean. I am not using it in my chainsaw as I have plenty of Mobil 2T to use up as I stocked up on that when it was going out of production - but I would not be afraid to use Amsoil Saber at 80:1 to 100:1 in my chainsaws that are stock. Amsoil does not recommend this oil for racing or high performance engines - it is intended for use in small engines operating under routine conditions like yard maintenance. If you have modified your saw.......use some high performance synthetic oil.

If you are not comfortable using Amsoil Saber at 100:1 in your yard equipment or chainsaw....that is fine as there are plenty of other oils you can use. It is a good product however and does a good job for the intended use, and it doesn't deserve the negative comments that people are making - especially when those people have never used Amsoil Saber or other oils specifically made to run at 100:1. Those of us that have used Amsoil Saber are very pleased with it and feel that it works just fine.

 

[aldo]

I have along with my Uncle whom recommended it, run Opti2 at 100:1 for 7 years, he ran it for 2 prior to me. Both our commercial whipper snippers are still running. His cops far more of a hiding than mine. They are both identical Kawasaki units, his being 9 years old mine being 7.

6 months ago I purchased some Tanaka trimmers and blowers and the sales person refused to give me warranty if I ran the Opti2 as he knew I used it so I have gone to manufacturers recommendations on all my equipment. I now use Shindiawa 2 stroke oil with fuel stabilizer. Since I have run my snipper on 50:1 I have noticed the exhaust port slowly leaving oil deposit which is begining to weep all over the muffler, something which it never did in the 7 years prior.

Just for the record I run my Yamaha outboard on 100:1 as per manufacturers recommendations and never had an issue. A lot nicer when trolling I tell you

Cheers

 

[huskystihl]

I think that many people here believe that all oils are formulated the same, and they are not. Many of the oil manufacturers thin their oil down with solvents so that they are compatable with oil injection systems - the oil is thin enough to work in injection systems and can also be used as premix oil at 50:1 ratios. If you read the specifications for some of these oils they specifically state that they have added solvents or thinning agents to the product so it is compatible with injecton systems. I looked at the Viscosity Index for several oils and those that are recommended for injector systems have Kinematic Viscosity somewhere around 7.5 - 9.0 at 100 degrees C and 40 - 58 at 40 degrees C.

Amsoil Saber is not thinned down and is not recommended for injector systems. The Kinematic Viscosity of Amsoil Saber is 13.5 at 100 degrees C and 99 at 40 degrees C. It is nearly twice as thick as most oils prior to mixing. I have used Amsoil Saber and the difference when mixing is obvious as it is much thicker and pours much slower. I believe that if Amsoil added solvents (just like the other manufacturers) and told everyone to mix it at 50:1 it would be far less controversial - they are just adding less solvent and putting more oil in the same size container.

I used Amsoil Saber in my trials motorcycle, weed eater and leaf blower at 100:1 and it works great and burns very clean. I am not using it in my chainsaw as I have plenty of Mobil 2T to use up as I stocked up on that when it was going out of production - but I would not be afraid to use Amsoil Saber at 80:1 to 100:1 in my chainsaws that are stock. Amsoil does not recommend this oil for racing or high performance engines - it is intended for use in small engines operating under routine conditions like yard maintenance. If you have modified your saw.......use some high performance synthetic oil.

If you are not comfortable using Amsoil Saber at 100:1 in your yard equipment or chainsaw....that is fine as there are plenty of other oils you can use. It is a good product however and does a good job for the intended use, and it doesn't deserve the negative comments that people are making - especially when those people have never used Amsoil Saber or other oils specifically made to run at 100:1. Those of us that have used Amsoil Saber are very pleased with it and feel that it works just fine.

I would assume there will be no issues running it with a simple muff mod?

 

[sbhooper]

Great post, oneoldbanjo. I have said essentially the same thing several times and have been bashed for it. I have used it for many years in various equipment and have had ZERO oil-related trouble. The bottom line is don't bash something that you are not willing to try yourself. It is a great product whether you use it at 100:1 or 50:1. I have done both and have settled at 75:1 for now.

 

[2many2count]

100 to one

Boys I didn't want to jump on bandwagon but I got to.Most of you act as if synthetic two cycle oil is new age stuff. I was working in a lawnmower shop in 1978-1984 when my boss showed me some literature on amsoil synthetic 2 cycle oil running at 100-1.I thought this was insane when every manufacturer at the time was running 16-1 to 32-1 was the leanest at the time.But I tried the amsoil at the 100-1 ,started out in my weedeaters that summer was very impressed.If it could perform that well in 100 degree days with no problems it was good enough to get used in chainsaws that fall,winter,and spring.By the way I have never used less than premium for fuel source,I feel the 2 cycle engine is a high performance for the rpm's they turn.I have never had a 2 cycle engine seize from amsoil,but I have from another company lucas mixed at 40-1.Another thing you all need to be aware of your engines if it's not running the way it should, stop and find problem before continuing on .Another thing everyone wants there saws to scream,I was taught to tune 2 cycle this way start with the low speed needle turn in to lean,stop before engine dies.Then turn out till engine wants to die again then set your needle in the middle of the 2 settings.Then the turn high speed needle till engine 4 cycles sporadically.

 

[gallegosmike]

In my trimmer, only! Never in a saw that Ive got $700-$850 in. Too much money to be cheap with oil. Oil is cheap compared to a pricey saw!

 

[cmarti]

Banjo is right ,it is the oil, not the machine. It is not just solvents, but oils are designed and made with different vicosities to be mixed and used at a certain ratio. So mix the oil at the ratio the oil manufacturer says, not the machine maker.

However, what oil for what application is a source for endless debate. Is there one oil that is best in all 2 cycle applications. I say no, but many are very good, and this has become an angels on the head of a pin argument.
I use Stihl ultra Syn in everything, even a lawnboy. It works, and I am sure Amsoil and Klotz work great too.

If you really want to investigate the science of oil, go over to bobistheoilguy.com. They are oil geeks worse than saw geeks!