You Guys Looking At New Bandmills,

[Sawyer Rob]

I was asking about the new Norwood mills on another site, and then found this thread.

Honestly, I'm not very impressed with the new mills. They just do not have a lot of new features or options added. Not saying I don't like the Norwood mills, but by the looks of it the price is going up also. I mean, $1000 for about $200 worth of extra features? Maybe I'm missing something here...it's not like they redesigned the entire mill...

For this class of mill, I still like the Cooks MP-32 about the best, and if I buy a new mill I will most likely get the Cooks MP-32.

My preference is to buy a used mill though, and I made an offer on a used LT15 that I haven't heard back from the seller yet. Presumably he didn't like my offer...lol

Yup, you ARE missing something here.

First of all, the designer of the new mill told me told me they DID redesign the WHOLE mill. He also said there WOULD be an increase in price, but not a thousand dollar increase.

Personally, i see a heck of a lot more than $200.00 worth of new features.

Rob

 

[TraditionalTool]

Personally, i see a heck of a lot more than $200.00 worth of new features.

Like what? The extra width is about the biggest addition. The other fixes were mostly to bring the mills up to par with others in it's class, no?

There are several mills in the price range as the MX34, the Cooks MP-32, TimberKing 1220, Woodmizer LT15, not to mention the less popular mills like the Linn or Hudson, for instance. What is so new and earth shattering with the new MX34 that I'm missing?

 

[Sawyer Rob]

Like what? The extra width is about the biggest addition. The other fixes were mostly to bring the mills up to par with others in it's class, no?

There are several mills in the price range as the MX34, the Cooks MP-32, TimberKing 1220, Woodmizer LT15, not to mention the less popular mills like the Linn or Hudson, for instance. What is so new and earth shattering with the new MX34 that I'm missing?

Well, have you sawn on all of these mills? Only the latest LT15 is anywhere near the 2000 and i believe the MX will be more mill than the 2000 is. As for the MP-32 cooks. The 2000 specs beat that mill too, so there ya go.

BUT, i'll compare it to the MX for you. The MX will saw a longer, bigger log, a wider cant, has more std. hp, has bigger band wheels, and will be cheaper to add options to.

You will have to add options to the cooks to get it up to the MX in std. HP alone. (12hp vs 16hp) And it still won't mill as big of logs.

As for earth shattering, i'd call the new clutch, new setworks, new guides and a new stiffer head design pretty earth shattering, and that's just the beginning.

Rob

 

[TraditionalTool]

Well, have you sawn on all of these mills? Only the latest LT15 is anywhere near the 2000 and i believe the MX will be more mill than the 2000 is. As for the MP-32 cooks. The 2000 specs beat that mill too, so there ya go.

What do you mean that the 2000 will beat the MP-32? It's not about having the only mill that can do the job, most of these mill will handle the load I need to handle, so any of them could make a decent choice.

One downside for me is the bed/extensions for the Norwood products, although I have to admit the cross members do look stronger to me on the 2000, the MX34 is probably as strong or I doubt Norwood would replace it with them. The problem is that it would be difficult to fabricate your own extensions, so in this case you need to rely on Norwood for them, and $100/ft is not cheap. For the work I would like to ultimately do with the mill, I would need at least 32 feet, with the Norwood it requires 5 extensions plus freight to get one to 33'.

BUT, i'll compare it to the MX for you. The MX will saw a longer, bigger log, a wider cant, has more std. hp, has bigger band wheels, and will be cheaper to add options to.

I did notice the band wheels were bigger, I will give it that...and I noticed the ceramic guides, and familiar with ceramic. But other guides can be adapted to the 2000. The cooling setup looks simpler and possibly better but also something that can be adapted later, on a 2000 for instance.

You will have to add options to the cooks to get it up to the MX in std. HP alone. (12hp vs 16hp) And it still won't mill as big of logs.

You are correct, I was looking at the basic MP-32 with the 30HP engine, the cost of that is about $7300, shipping is about $700, so $8k.

As for earth shattering, i'd call the new clutch, new setworks, new guides and a new stiffer head design pretty earth shattering, and that's just the beginning.

Clutch might be worth something, but I haven't heard people complaining about the old clutch, and don't see a mass failure on them.

I know you see the new features from the viewpoint of a Norwood owner, but I see them from the view of a potential owner, these are all features. Most of the mills have similar features, none are 100% comparable.

To toss back some of my reasoning on liking the Cooks MP-32 for my needs (we all have our own, I recognize that), it has a solid construction that can be duplicated pretty easily out of square tube, and that is a plus for the LT15, it can be extended by the DIY owner more easily, IMO.

Both the MP-32 and LT15 have a power feed option, and I don't believe that power is needed but feel that you will get more consistent looking boards by having it. That is something that is a sacrifice on the Norwood, but not a deal breaker for me. If I find another used Norwood for what I feel is a reasonable price within driving distance, I would get it. There's a nice sounding one over on the forestry forum but back east in PA or somewhere...it also had the bigger engine. I would buy a small engine mill, with the hopes to upgrade the engine. Ideally I would like to have at least a 20HP engine.

I have not spent a lot of time on these small mills, and have been looking mostly for a used one. The mill I have experience on was all mechanical, amish built, with a 30HP diesel engine. I don't need that much mill though...and am limited on what I want to spend. I would like to keep it down between $3500-$5000, but if I buy new I have been leaning towards the MP-32 with the 30HP, and extend it myself.

 

[Coalsmoke]

Well, have you sawn on all of these mills? Only the latest LT15 is anywhere near the 2000 and i believe the MX will be more mill than the 2000 is. As for the MP-32 cooks. The 2000 specs beat that mill too, so there ya go.

BUT, i'll compare it to the MX for you. The MX will saw a longer, bigger log, a wider cant, has more std. hp, has bigger band wheels, and will be cheaper to add options to.

You will have to add options to the cooks to get it up to the MX in std. HP alone. (12hp vs 16hp) And it still won't mill as big of logs.

As for earth shattering, i'd call the new clutch, new setworks, new guides and a new stiffer head design pretty earth shattering, and that's just the beginning.

Rob

Jeeeeeeeeeze Rob, how many thousand board feet do you have on all of those mills, including the new Norwood MX Super Pro? Stop taking other people's questioning on the value of one of the new mills so personal

 

[Sawyer Rob]

Jeeeeeeeeeze Rob, how many thousand board feet do you have on all of those mills, including the new Norwood MX Super Pro? Stop taking other people's questioning on the value of one of the new mills so personal

It's not me taking something personal, but you seem to be taking my post(s) VERY personal.

I don't care what anyone buys for a mill, after all, it's THEIR money, not mine. But, when someone post something that just isn't true, or post something that i have enough experience about to answer questions concerning it, or if i can just plain set the record straight, i'm going to post those answers.

For instance, when someone post something like (the MX34) "it's not like they redesigned the entire mill". This just isn't true, it IS a totaly new mill, new track, new everything, so why should i sit back and let readers here who don't know any better think that it isn't?

Did you forget, i'm like YOU. I tell it like it is. And i did.

I'm glad everyone here isn't offended that i spend MY hard earned money, to travel around sawing on all kinds of mills and posting the info FREE, here and other places on line. At least those folks that email and PM me, thanking me for my post aren't offended.

Rob

 

[TraditionalTool]

Rob,

Are you a Norwood dealer or something? Or are you just a cheerleader?

Not for nothing, but your the one running around with a big woody over the MX34, and as a potential buyer I just don't see so much greatness added that many of the other mills didn't have already, and not to add $1000. These are features that should have been on the mill already, at the same price, IMO. Sure, you have the LM2000 so you can see the advantage of not having those features. What you are saying is that now you realize that those features really were worth that much to you, on the LM2000.

Maybe someone will be wanting to dump their LM2000 for those great features so I can get a good deal on one, they would have the MX34 and life would be grand for all. Let me know if anyone has one out west they're looking to sell, I have cash.

In the meantime I just got this trailer full of pine and I don't need to mill any of it, it's been done on the amish built mill with a 30HP diesel. There's enough timber here to build a 28'x32' log home. Hence why I need a 32' mill, at least for this house I'm building. I have the plans which are stamped for structural engineering for building in Cali. I just need roof/porch rafters for finishing this build.

This is what the first portion I completed back in May/June looks like:

 

[Ted J]

I like my Norwood mill too but making improvements backward compatible is important. What I am talking about is how you can significantly improve profits & loyality to existing customers. Take for example all those LM-2000 customers over the past 10 years? How many will now buy the new model and sell their existing model? How many would buy the new enhancements if they could be made available on the LM-2000? Use whatever percentage you like but selling new product features for new and older models is a very important market for successful companies. Better guides, better locking log posts, better ways of watering, throttle control, etc.. may not by themselves seem huge but they can be bothersome on a manual mill and many will feel worth buying. My marketing background leads me to feel that if the features are real improvements many existing customers will want them and the solution will not be to buy a new mill for the majority of customers. My engineering background tells me that if Norwood has ignored this market potential then someone should do the retrofit for them.

Maybe they're thinking along the lines like the Japanese did with 8-Tracks and Cassettes.....?

 

[OlyPenSawBoy]

I'm seriously searching to locate and purchase a used late-model LM2000 at this very moment, and I too have cash. I'm based west of Seattle on the Olympic Peninsula. Does anyone wish to sell their LM2000? If so, let me know. Thanks.

 

[Coalsmoke]

Well, I'll probably be upgrading to a larger mill but not for another few months. In November I had a local guy offer me 8K for it (that's in Canadian funds) which is fair for a 1 year old mill, plus he'd save on not having to deal with all the setup and the mods are all done to it already. Only problem for him is I'm not ready to sell yet. At the time I was right in the middle of a timber frame job too. Anyways, just thought I'd mention this to give you an idea of their value if they are well cared for and have the large engine option. This buyer had done his research, which is what led him to the late model LM2000 with the large engine.

 

[Coalsmoke]

Traditional Tool, you are doing some VERY nice work there! Thanks for the pictures.

 

[OlyPenSawBoy]

Well, I'll probably be upgrading to a larger mill but not for another few months. ...Anyways, just thought I'd mention this to give you an idea of their value if they are well cared for and have the large engine option. This buyer had done his research, which is what led him to the late model LM2000 with the large engine.

Thanks for your feedback Coalsmoke.

Like in your neck of the woods, the trees here on the Olympic Peninsula are large DF, WRC, Red Alder, Maples and so on. Most of our trees are 20" to 36" DBH (some upwards of 40"), so the LM2000 with the larger engine, or possibly the MX34 would handle the majority of the logs available on our property.

I called Norwood sales department last week and was a bit shocked to discover the price of the MX34 is a couple of thousand USD more than a new LM2000. If I could get a used LM2000 in good shape I would probably go that direction.

There doesn't seem to be too many Norwood machines on the west coast, which is a drawback as far as onsite inspection and transport across N.America of a used machine.

Where is the best place to look for used LM2000's? I've found the saw-mill exchange, but those machines are mostly located in the east and southeast and rarely does an LM2000 show up there. Any additional sites/resources you can direct me to? Thanks.

 

[OlyPenSawBoy]

Traditional Tool, you are doing some VERY nice work there! Thanks for the pictures.

I second that!! TraditionalTool - great stuff! Some of the things I see being done here on this website are fantastic.

After a life of building things from houses to 55 storey buildings, I'm excited to start from the basic log/resource and produce several buildings on our property now that I'm retired and living local again.

Thanks for the photos TraditionalTool!

 

[Coalsmoke]

Sawyer Rob, We sure haven't been seeing eye to eye on this one, but I still appreciate your regular input. Hope you and your family have a merry Christmas.

 

[Coalsmoke]

OPSB, You will not regret going with the large engine. With our large west coast timber, it sure makes a big difference. 24" of Douglas Fir will really bring a smile to your face. One thing I think is worth mentioning. Don't get hung up on the mills that advertise any more than 36" of log capacity. Even at the 31" (or 34" with a little bit of trimming) that the LM2000 will handle, you will find that there is so much weight in that log that you will have larger issues with handling the log than actually sawing it. I find logs in the 16-24" range are my steady diet and the LM2000 is very well suited for this.

Now, for finding you a used LM2000, talk to everyone you can. There is a guy in Chilliwack with one, whether he would want to sell it I'm not sure. I could probably get his email for you if you wanted to ask and see about it. I lucked out, I found a guy that bought my mill to build his house, but he completely underestimated the amount of work involved in milling, and after 10 hours of use he sold it to me, in the middle of a recession. It doesn't get any better than that There are probably a few on the Vancouver Island, there are lots of mills there.

I love my mill so much that I am seriously considering reworking it to add complete hydraulics on it.

Thanks for your feedback Coalsmoke.

Like in your neck of the woods, the trees here on the Olympic Peninsula are large DF, WRC, Red Alder, Maples and so on. Most of our trees are 20" to 36" DBH (some upwards of 40"), so the LM2000 with the larger engine, or possibly the MX34 would handle the majority of the logs available on our property.

I called Norwood sales department last week and was a bit shocked to discover the price of the MX34 is a couple of thousand USD more than a new LM2000. If I could get a used LM2000 in good shape I would probably go that direction.

There doesn't seem to be too many Norwood machines on the west coast, which is a drawback as far as onsite inspection and transport across N.America of a used machine.

Where is the best place to look for used LM2000's? I've found the saw-mill exchange, but those machines are mostly located in the east and southeast and rarely does an LM2000 show up there. Any additional sites/resources you can direct me to? Thanks.

 

[TraditionalTool]

Traditional Tool, you are doing some VERY nice work there! Thanks for the pictures.

I second that!! TraditionalTool - great stuff! Some of the things I see being done here on this website are fantastic.

After a life of building things from houses to 55 storey buildings, I'm excited to start from the basic log/resource and produce several buildings on our property now that I'm retired and living local again.

Thanks for the photos TraditionalTool!

Thanks guys, the kind words are appreciated. I have waited a long time for this to come together, and originally I had been planning an entirely different home built out of round log timberframe, using Structural Insulated Panels as the skin. But the home was HUGE, and I was laid off from my job last January...so had my severance to buy logs with. I scaled it down so I could do it myself. While it is small, it will go on a full walkout basement and there is a 2nd floor, so this is a 3 bedroom 3 bath house, and will be about 2000 sq.ft. of living space.

Truth be told, I would have never attempted this without the help from good friend and master craftsman, Tim Bullock, who I consider to be one of the great log craftsman of our time. It was an honor to be able to learn from such an accomplished craftsman.

I'm hoping to re-assemble those first few rounds this week, so that I can continue working on the home. I have tried to carefully set this up at a rental yard fairly close to my house, so I can work on it after I find work. Until then I'm gonna keep working on it and get as much done as I can.

However, this is what drives me to finding a sawmill. I have a lot of timber that is needed still, I have the roof and porch rafters, and there is a bit of 2x6 t&g for the 2nd floor, as well as t&g paneling for the ceilings, and I plan to have most all wood floors, so a mill will assist nicely in that with a shaper.

I missed out on a 36" diameter black walnut trunk that was 22' long as I didn't have a way to mill it up...that got me to realize that there is a lot of timber that can be got for free, and a sawmill could turn that into real usable material in any home!

Here's what the logs look like off the truck, there's 7 32' logs and 4 28' logs. Also beam joist (12"x14"x30') and another cross beam. All the floor joists will be 6x10 cants of EWP.

Here's most of the fitted logs I crafted back in May/June.

And here's the last 2 fitted logs along with 4 more 28 foot logs:

 

[OlyPenSawBoy]

TraditionalTool - I know the excitement and pure pleasure of building your own house. Back in the 1990's I did just that too. I hired one guy for 16 months, and during that time, he and I did "all" the work (except hang the garage doors) from start to finish on a 3,500 sq.ft. house in the San Francisco bay area. We did the planning, scheduling and all the labor ourselves. No one else came to site except for delivery peronnel (and the building inspector of course). By that time in life I had years of work experience as a civil engineer and a licensed general contractor in CA. Doing all the trades on that one home was fantastic and things went really well. You will enjoy the rewards of building your own house.

My family lived in that home for a good number of years. It was very rewarding. There is nothing like doing it yourself if you have the motivation and determination to see it to completion. It also gives you the ability to add those extras to make it special.

Since that time my wife (who is an architect) and I have built several houses (more than 10 at this stage). It is always exciting for me to develop site plans and construction drawings...and then to see my ideas built and appreciated. I'm sure you will enjoy that process!

I've never built a log home before, but I have been in them many times and really appreciate the unique atmosphere exposed structural elements can bring to "the feel" of a home. To see your finely fitted logs is exciting and gives me the urge to study up on the technique. In the very near future I anticipate building several large post-framed buildings on our 140-acre ranch. I'd like to construct them with as many materials as I possibly can produce from our own trees...since we have lots of them. A band mill is next on my equipment list. I've been working with timber, structural steel and reinforced concrete all my life, but my passion is with natural timber and I'm certain I will love milling my own very soon!

Good luck on your exciting adventure! Stay focused and determined, you'll love the feeling of having done it yourself.

 

[TraditionalTool]

TraditionalTool - I know the excitement and pure pleasure of building your own house. Back in the 1990's I did just that too. I hired one guy for 16 months, and during that time, he and I did "all" the work (except hang the garage doors) from start to finish on a 3,500 sq.ft. house in the San Francisco bay area. We did the planning, scheduling and all the labor ourselves.

Wow, very similar story, although I'm not into construction by trade. I'm building with log, but the roof and porches are timber. I live in South Bay (of SF Bay), and building it in Morgan Hill at a small yard I'm renting. The home will reside up at Clear Lake, I have a piece of lakefront property for it.

I've never built a log home before, but I have been in them many times and really appreciate the unique atmosphere exposed structural elements can bring to "the feel" of a home. To see your finely fitted logs is exciting and gives me the urge to study up on the technique.

It's not that difficult, IMO, and if you have done any amount of woodworking or building in general, which it sounds like, it is not hard. There are people to learn from, I found a craftsman out of work and willing to help a spec like myself. lol

In the very near future I anticipate building several large post-framed buildings on our 140-acre ranch.

I suspect that this will be one of several structure, I might think about building a garage after I get this one done. I might think about doing another one, after, not sure...I'm enjoying learning how to do it. That in itself was a treat.

For my needs I want to have a sawmill that can handle these type of logs, and I think that many of them can, most all require multiple extensions to do so, but for most that is possible. It is not as if a Norwood would work and a WoodMizer wouldn't, or a Cooks would or yada-yada-yada...What I'm dealing with is a log that has the sides milled off of it. Ga-bing-ga-bang, done, on a bandmill. But the sawmill needs to handle a 28' - 32' log on my current home...I wouldn't want to build with smaller logs, and 40' logs would be really nice!

I have also wondered if a Lucas type mill might not be good in the sense of being able to handle a long log. The extensions are decent. Seems the Lucas would cut a cant any size as long as you only want one out of a log.

For furniture and such, even 11' material can be made into everything inside a house.

There's a guy that has an LT30 in NorCal that has been for sale, he's been wanting $10k, and recently lowered it to $9k. Still too pricey for my blood at the moment. I need to keep it down between $3500-$5000, and would feel more comfortable with the lower figure. Still, I see worthy mills go for that, just seems more are back east.

 

[Coalsmoke]

Tradiotional Tool, given your budget and need to handle 30' + logs, have you considered the Norwood Lumberlite?

 

[TraditionalTool]

Tradiotional Tool, given your budget and need to handle 30' + logs, have you considered the Norwood Lumberlite?

I have considered it, as I have the Cooks MP-24, and the LT10...but they are not very stout and I think for this type of work one needs a bigger engine.

A used Lumbermate 2000 would work, and I just missed one recently. More will come, no rush as most of my wall logs are milled already, as-is much of my timber cants.

Minimum I would like an LT15, Lumbermate 2000, Cooks MP-32, TimberKing 1220, etc...these are mostly in the $8k-$10k new, depending on options.

As an alternative I have looked at the Linn and the Burg. Burg has a special which could get upgraded to a 16HP vanguard, that's in my price range, but just doesn't seem as good as the Linn, but the Linn is quite a bit more for comparable. Burg has a 42" carriage that will cut 36". They offer it for $3600 with a 13HP Honda engine. I talked to him and he could do the 16HP Vanguard upgrade for $4400.

The Linn 190a or 1900 would be in the $6k-$7k.

I still think I'm better off with an LT15 or Lumbermate 2000, if I can find one used at a decent price. An LT15 would allow me to fabricate my own extensions, the Norwood would be more difficult and/or require purchasing from Norwood.

The Cooks MP-32 looks like steel tubing with an angle or bar welded to the side/top, as they sell v-rollers that could be adapted to other mills. This looks like one could fabricate their own extensions also. The Burg and Linn use similar angle iron from what I can tell, doesn't look very stout to start tossing 32' logs on...

Anyone have any opinions on the Burg or Linn mills?

Also, any of these prices I have mentioned for new could be found used as well. There is a Burg for sale in South Oregon now, but I think the seller is asking too much considering the current sale going on.