Ceramic Bearings?????

[chowdozer]

Thats what I figured.

Do you know what a non-disclosure agreement is?

 

[ShoerFast]

I don't doubt ceramic bearing balls reduce friction. I'd still like someone to nicely (I'm not here to grind any axes..) explain that if the only variable is the bearing type, and the added power is being gained from the LACK of friction, then surely that power is currently being absorbed by the NON-Ceramic bearings... Example, using the low end of Dean's HP number (not to be argumentative...) 5% gain on of a 6hp saw = 0.3hp or about 228 watts - that's 114 watts per bearing. Anyone ever tried to hold a 100 watt soldering iron or noticed just how much heating it can do on a peice of metal metal...... What's wrong with my logic???


Also... back to bearing basics... Don't the balls actually run on a film of lubricant.. not surface contact?

Your logic is spot on!

The test would need an infrared running temp of the bearing. If there were a substantial drop, just think of how much better charge density it would have as the mix would not have to carry that heat out. slowly blow a mix of air gas and oil over that soldering iron, at it would never get hot.

Just as your right about the bearing never touches the race, there is a reason they polish them, as the oil flows or gets squished around in a sort of laminar flow , each layer has it's own speed, down to zero speed at point of contact with the ball and race, the higher the polish, the thinner the film and faster the oil flows. Sort of like the tire on a course gravel road, or on pavement, the pavement has a lower rolling resistance, but not a lot more heat from friction. At the size of the oil molecule, the ceramic looks like a plate of glass to the oil, but even polished, the steel looks like barnacles on a boat.

 

[sILlogger]

I stirred up the Hornets with this one!!!

I started this thread and am damn glad i did it. to me is seems that ceramic bearings don't increase hp. just free up lost power, much the same that a manual transmission car will get more hp to the ground than an automatic due to the fact that less power is lost in a manual trans. and for you people with you #'s and your attempts to disprove #'s. To me #'s don't mean jack sh*t. i recently modded the muffler on my 066. being a logger and running that saw every day i could tell a difference pre/post muffler mod. you could tell me that i gained .5 hp. and i'd say so what, and tell you to to to take your #'s and p*ss on an electric fence and tell me how much power (in #'s of course) that you gained from it. The ceramic bearing case also seems to apply much the same way that a muffler mod does. your not increasing hp. but mearly freeing up hp. (just the same that performance exhaust is added to a vehicle) another good thing that seems to be the case with ceramic bearings is longevity. ive got an 046 (fav. saw) that i am on my 3rd rebuild of the top end, wore it out stock, 1st rebuild, and am now on a BB. And my next rebuild will probably include rebearing the saw. Now---if ceramic bearings were to last longer than stock(allowing more rebuilds), be more effiecient--how could a person go wrong!!!!Ive worked on my own stuff for years, and built several saws, im no saw builder, and don't claim to be, and im also no engineer. but i can see where the ceramic argument is coming from. And as for all the people who are just looking for somethign to B*tch about---find somethign better to do. i started this tread for information. not to have for people to have a 3rd grade temper tantrum. but if u have something logical and befificial to the thread then im all ears--but find another place to b*tch cuz i don't think the majority of the people here want to hear it. to all that have helped and shared viable info. Thank you.

 

[bwalker]

Do you know what a non-disclosure agreement is?

Oh brother.....

 

[chowdozer]

I don't doubt ceramic bearing balls reduce friction. I'd still like someone to nicely (I'm not here to grind any axes..) explain that if the only variable is the bearing type, and the added power is being gained from the LACK of friction, then surely that power is currently being absorbed by the NON-Ceramic bearings... Example, using the low end of Dean's HP number (not to be argumentative...) 5% gain on of a 6hp saw = 0.3hp or about 228 watts - that's 114 watts per bearing. Anyone ever tried to hold a 100 watt soldering iron or noticed just how much heating it can do on a peice of metal metal...... What's wrong with my logic???


Also... back to bearing basics... Don't the balls actually run on a film of lubricant.. not surface contact?

In the case of a saw, a bearing test has to be isolated from the saw. There is a certain amount of heat the saw generates through combustion and a certain amount of cooling that is available through the intake charge both by the cool charge and the vaporization of the fuel. I know you've pulled saws apart and have seen the signs of heat where there shouldn't be. Cooked on oil varnish and stuff. Heat from the bearing is absorbed by the crank and by the case, both of which are impossible to measure while the bearing is in the saw. I can't give you specific numbers, but one of the websites I listed previously mentioned that ceramic bearings improve seal life. Heat is hard on seals and it takes a fair amount of heat to affect a seal.

The bearings do run on a film of oil or grease. The reason that ceramic bearings reduce friction is the ceramic balls are much rounder (like that's a word?) than steel balls. With the steel balls, there is rotation and skidding inside the race. Certainly a ball that is skidding is undesirable. Another promising aspect of ceramic bearings is they are somewhat self cleaning. The ceramic is so hard, it pulverizes anything in the race. I think the ceramic is a Rockwell 72 or something. Don't quote me on that.

Anyway, I expect to see them on more things in the future. Certainly on saws as the EPA clamps down on OPE, manufacturers are going to be looking at ways to get todays power out of a smaller engine. I am by no means a bearing expert and I don't have all the answers.

 

[bwalker]

Anyone have any knowledge on how cermic bearings handle debris? A real issue when you consider how much crap a typical saw ingests.
In the past I have read that they don't handle debris all the well and when the fail the tend to totally fail in a catastrophic way.

 

[04ultra]

.

 

[chowdozer]

Your logic is spot on!

The test would need an infrared running temp of the bearing. If there were a substantial drop, just think of how much better charge density it would have as the mix would not have to carry that heat out. slowly blow a mix of air gas and oil over that soldering iron, at it would never get hot.

Just as your right about the bearing never touches the race, there is a reason they polish them, as the oil flows or gets squished around in a sort of laminar flow , each layer has it's own speed, down to zero speed at point of contact with the ball and race, the higher the polish, the thinner the film and faster the oil flows. Sort of like the tire on a course gravel road, or on pavement, the pavement has a lower rolling resistance, but not a lot more heat from friction. At the size of the oil molecule, the ceramic looks like a plate of glass to the oil, but even polished, the steel looks like barnacles on a boat.

I'd rep you if I could.

 

[chowdozer]

.

LOL!!! I appreciate your sense of humor!

 

[chowdozer]

Anyone have any knowledge on how cermic bearings handle debris? A real issue when you consider how much crap a typical saw ingests.
In the past I have read that they don't handle debris all the well and when the fail the tend to totally fail in a catastrophic way.

Small debris well. Bigger debris, never been there.

 

[Chopwood]

Yeah, I'm sure you would know.

Don't file - I grind - Pro Sharp.

I'll hand square file your pro-sharp into the ground.

 

[ShoerFast]

Now back to the Dean & Benny Show, I think there is going to be a decided winner here soon!

 

[chowdozer]

Now back to the Dean & Benny Show, I think there is going to be a decided winner here soon!

Bud Light exiting nose, gasp, gasp

 

[spacemule]

And when you cold start it people stop what they are doing and usually come watch!!!!!!!!!!!!

So, you're saying it's noisier? What other relevance can this statement possibly have? After all, you can't hear how fast a saw is cutting without seeing the wood, can you?

Several of you have said you don't care about numbers. So, what relevance does your testimony have to a performance discussion if numbers mean nothing to you? I can imagine I'm cutting wood with my bare hands faster than a saw can run, but without numbers my fancy is just that, a fancy.

 

[bcorradi]

Gypo - check your pms.

 

[sILlogger]

i figured this would come up, but in my case i was referring to technical #'s, but yes cutting through a log in 7 sec. rather than 10 sec. is important #'s, just that much faster i can go to the next one. And as for the cutting by hand--come on down to southern Il. and ill put u into a patch of timber and you can cut all you want my hand and can imagine how fast your cutting all you want...we'll count the trees at the end of the day!!!! i get your point tho. just yanking your chain.

 

[ShoerFast]

So, you're saying it's noisier? What other relevance can this statement possibly have? After all, you can't hear how fast a saw is cutting without seeing the wood, can you?

Several of you have said you don't care about numbers. So, what relevance does your testimony have to a performance discussion if numbers mean nothing to you? I can imagine I'm cutting wood with my bare hands faster than a saw can run, but without numbers my fancy is just that, a fancy.

Not maybe the answer your looking for, but for many here, chainsaws are as much of a Hobie or way of life as tools of the trade.

The best days I have cutting are the ones that I never look at a watch, eat when I'm hungary , water when I'm dry, listen to the saw, fill and maintain it as I need, never really looking at how fast it's cutting, but keeping the chain sparpe. When I have had enough, pack up for the day, then it's time to figure how much work was done, it's really not as much of a number, it's a day!

 

[spacemule]

I don't doubt ceramic bearing balls reduce friction. I'd still like someone to nicely (I'm not here to grind any axes..) explain that if the only variable is the bearing type, and the added power is being gained from the LACK of friction, then surely that power is currently being absorbed by the NON-Ceramic bearings... Example, using the low end of Dean's HP number (not to be argumentative...) 5% gain on of a 6hp saw = 0.3hp or about 228 watts - that's 114 watts per bearing.

Nothing wrong with your logic. All other things being equal, for one set of bearings to cause a 5% gain in hp necessitates that the bearings must be absorbing the friction, with one exception. It has been argued that the oil film coating ceramic bearings is thinner than steel balls because they are "rounder."

Now, logic should tell us that the thicker coating of oil surrounding the steel bearings must be transferring at least some of the additional heat being absorbed by the bearings. Fuel mix certainly plays a role in carrying heat away. So, it stands to reason that the entire 114 watts is not being absorbed by the bearing, or rather, much of the heat is being transferred away by the oil mix. Would be interesting to see some crankcase temperature measurements between the two types of saws. What do you think?

FWIW, I'm not trying to prove or disprove anyone's ideas here, just trying to add to a productive discussion.

 

[chowdozer]

Nothing wrong with your logic. All other things being equal, for one set of bearings to cause a 5% gain in hp necessitates that the bearings must be absorbing the friction, with one exception. It has been argued that the oil film coating ceramic bearings is thinner than steel balls because they are "rounder."

Now, logic should tell us that the thicker coating of oil surrounding the steel bearings must be transferring at least some of the additional heat being absorbed by the bearings. Fuel mix certainly plays a role in carrying heat away. So, it stands to reason that the entire 114 watts is not being absorbed by the bearing, or rather, much of the heat is being transferred away by the oil mix. Would be interesting to see some crankcase temperature measurements between the two types of saws. What do you think?

FWIW, I'm not trying to prove or disprove anyone's ideas here, just trying to add to a productive discussion.

Crankcase temps would certainly tell a story.

My thought was to grab a 1 horse electric motor and build a jig to spin the bearings at varying rpm's while they're mounted to a piece of aluminum. Pretty simple then to check a new set of bearings of each type. Measure the temp of the aluminum and it's a simple watts/sq in problem.

 

[Lakeside53]

Crankcase temps would certainly tell a story.

My thought was to grab a 1 horse electric motor and build a jig to spin the bearings at varying rpm's while they're mounted to a piece of aluminum. Pretty simple then to check a new set of bearings of each type. Measure the temp of the aluminum and it's a simple watts/sq in problem.

Wouldn't you have to put the bearing under load? An unloaded bearing doesn't have a lot of friction..


Look at the graphs I posted in post #7.. Up to 10,000rpm, the temp difference is maybe 20degrees F - nothing..... Sure it climbs away above that, and at what rpm does a saw develop it's max hp anyhow?