How to use your saws sights

[Metals406]

Look at some Sim-Limb videos and you can see why I try to stand up when falling snags. Live healthy trees are another matter. They get a low Humboldt.

:agree2:

 

[BarkBuster20]

good point on DBH cuts when it comes to fireline. never considered that.

 

[bullbuck]

smokechase,question,when i was growing up alot of my friends did some hotshotting when i started logging,when they got done the govt. had taught them that a conventional or "top"notch was the only way to safely fall a tree,the exact opposite of what i had been taught,for a conventional when it closes sits on a flat surface and if you cut too much hold wood it will slip off the stump whereas a humboldt holds the tree in the notches direction regardless if you cut too much wood or not,now these guys are adults still cutting scary conventionals,does the govt. still teach conventional "for safety"?

 

[BarkBuster20]

smokechase,question,when i was growing up alot of my friends did some hotshotting when i started logging,when they got done the govt. had taught them that a conventional or "top"notch was the only way to safely fall a tree,the exact opposite of what i had been taught,for a conventional when it closes sits on a flat surface and if you cut too much hold wood it will slip off the stump whereas a humboldt holds the tree in the notches direction regardless if you cut too much wood or not,now these guys are adults still cutting scary conventionals,does the govt. still teach conventional "for safety"?

im not smoke...but when you say "top" notch do you mean open face? and the humboldt is pretty standard. i wish you would have expanded on what you were trying to say. theres a reason there isnt just one way to notch a tree, every situation, and every tree is different. most trees can be safely fell with an open face.

 

[char]

You can easily go to a knee and look up just as easily doing a humboldt as with a conventional. Just my .02

FS certifiers generally frown upon taking a knee, but I personally can move just as fast from a one-knee down position as I can standing up. It is really dependent on the situation though. I can look "over" at my bar tip instead of looking down as well. Less time spent checking the bar tip.


Terrain can also dictate that you use a humboldt, so it is good to be versed in both methods.

I'd say you see more "uneven" holding wood on trees cut on the fireline as well. Usually my objective once it starts to go is not to chase the tree to get perfect holding wood, but to get out from under whatever is going to break out. It depends on the tree though. Tops, limbs, etc break out of burning or weakened trees quite often.

I'm constantly harping on my guys to "look up." Usually the trees available to cut are snags, but it is better to train someone on green trees where the hazard from falling debris tends to be lower.

 

[bullbuck]

im not smoke...but when you say "top" notch do you mean open face? and the humboldt is pretty standard. i wish you would have expanded on what you were trying to say. theres a reason there isnt just one way to notch a tree, every situation, and every tree is different. most trees can be safely fell with an open face.

my bad its clear to me what i am saying but i know how lingo differs,to me in my area,conventional notch is 1 horizontal direction cut,and one cut from above meeting the initial directional cut,humboldt being same directional cut but cutting from the underside of that to meet the initial directional cut,and finally what i call an open face is putting both of these cuts in a tree when you dont even want the notch to close,free fall...

 

[BarkBuster20]

my bad its clear to me what i am saying but i know how lingo differs,to me in my area,conventional notch is 1 horizontal direction cut,and one cut from above meeting the initial directional cut,humboldt being same directional cut but cutting from the underside of that to meet the initial directional cut,and finally what i call an open face is putting both of these cuts in a tree when you dont even want the notch to close,free fall...

thanks for clarifying

 

[smokechase II]

Stuff

?smokechase,question,when i was growing up alot of my friends did some hotshotting when i started logging,when they got done the govt. had taught them that a conventional or "top"notch was the only way to safely fall a tree,the exact opposite of what i had been taught,for a conventional when it closes sits on a flat surface and if you cut too much hold wood it will slip off the stump whereas a humboldt holds the tree in the notches direction regardless if you cut too much wood or not,now these guys are adults still cutting scary conventionals,does the govt. still teach conventional "for safety"?"

===================

I disagree on the "humboldt holds the tree in the notches direction regardless if you cut too much wood or not".

I think by the time you figure in the height of the face and any off lean and tapered hinge............

There can be forgiveness in certain techniques. Understood.

I think the advantage the Humboldt has that you may be referring to is how the butt will drop away quickly. But if that occurs, as it is likely with too much holding wood cut off, there can be a loss of control.

The hinge is the primary control of direction - working with the face.
If the hinge control is compromised often all bets are off.

==================

With regard to teaching technique.

It varies with location and instructor.

Some places are my way or the highway.

However, most are whatever works for you. Just do it well.
Instructors like Doug Dent have no problem with conventional for non-commercial felling.

====================

What I'm suggesting is that there is forgiveness also built into the conventional because it is easier to look up. I went through a round hard hat every tree a Humboldt decade but I look back on that as a mistake.

I think one needs to be good at every technique on a tree by tree basis.

 

[char]

Not to start anything here, but Dent frequently fails people and those same people turn around and get certified by another C-certifier later that same year. I personnally failed my eval with him a few years ago, then passed the next season. I did learn a bunch from being in the woods with him though. And in no way am I bashing him, just an observation. (Is the evaluation system screwed up for agency C-Fallers?)

 

[redprospector]

Let's look at training for fallers in the US.

I think its a serious enough of a job that it should be similar to what an Electrician goes through.

For Fallers I would suggest: Classroom/field basic certification/journeyman for at least two years/field final certification. I think BC is doing something similar, although most who have done the job would want more field experience than they require for newbees.

Without the field experience putting folks through four layers of GOL they could become believers in what they have been taught but ignorant of what is available elsewhere.

Good and bad side terms that don't deal with safety?
Come on?

That all looks good on paper, but who's going to pay for all that training and certification?
Around here fallers don't make enough to afford 2 years of classroom/field training.
The logging outfit's sure can't afford to send someone to school for 2 years before they can actually put them to work.
There's hardly any mills left, so they probably don't need the extra expense.
That only leaves the gubment, and I'd just as soon see them keep their noses out of private industry.

When I started falling timber it was on the job training. If you were lucky an "old timer" would take you under his wing, and teach you. The guy that taught me would look at some of the new guys and say that the only thing anyone should be showing them was how to flip burgers.
In my opinion more can be learned in 3 month from an old timer, than 2 years in a classroom.

Andy

 

[bullbuck]

That all looks good on paper, but who's going to pay for all that training and certification?
Around here fallers don't make enough to afford 2 years of classroom/field training.
The logging outfit's sure can't afford to send someone to school for 2 years before they can actually put them to work.
There's hardly any mills left, so they probably don't need the extra expense.
That only leaves the gubment, and I'd just as soon see them keep their noses out of private industry.

When I started falling timber it was on the job training. If you were lucky an "old timer" would take you under his wing, and teach you. The guy that taught me would look at some of the new guys and say that the only thing anyone should be showing them was how to flip burgers.
In my opinion more can be learned in 3 month from an old timer, than 2 years in a classroom.

Andy

well said andy...you notice how big the circus is these days every 3rd car i pass is f.s.green,and theres alot of cars these days...

 

[redprospector]

well said andy...you notice how big the circus is these days every 3rd car i pass is f.s.green,and theres alot of cars these days...

Yep, I noticed that.
This is a tourist town, and we've got more FS employee's than tourist.

Andy

 

[bullbuck]

?smokechase,question,when i was growing up alot of my friends did some hotshotting when i started logging,when they got done the govt. had taught them that a conventional or "top"notch was the only way to safely fall a tree,the exact opposite of what i had been taught,for a conventional when it closes sits on a flat surface and if you cut too much hold wood it will slip off the stump whereas a humboldt holds the tree in the notches direction regardless if you cut too much wood or not,now these guys are adults still cutting scary conventionals,does the govt. still teach conventional "for safety"?"

===================

I disagree on the "humboldt holds the tree in the notches direction regardless if you cut too much wood or not".

I think by the time you figure in the height of the face and any off lean and tapered hinge............

There can be forgiveness in certain techniques. Understood.

I think the advantage the Humboldt has that you may be referring to is how the butt will drop away quickly. But if that occurs, as it is likely with too much holding wood cut off, there can be a loss of control.

The hinge is the primary control of direction - working with the face.
If the hinge control is compromised often all bets are off.

==================

With regard to teaching technique.

It varies with location and instructor.

Some places are my way or the highway.

However, most are whatever works for you. Just do it well.
Instructors like Doug Dent have no problem with conventional for non-commercial felling.

====================

What I'm suggesting is that there is forgiveness also built into the conventional because it is easier to look up. I went through a round hard hat every tree a Humboldt decade but I look back on that as a mistake.

I think one needs to be good at every technique on a tree by tree basis.

good deal,everyone is entitled to their opinion,this is just my interpretation on physics,they only reason i cut onventional is to get a lower stump cause im also a cat skinner,thats the only reason...

 

[bullbuck]

Yep, I noticed that.
This is a tourist town, and we've got more FS employee's than tourist.

Andy

haha those real estate agents better get the firk out the way,theres a new boss in town,,,ohhh hold on the only people that can afford a house here these days work for them?ok well *** it wer skrewd...we have been owned

 

[BarkBuster20]

hm well it would be nice to get on the job training from an old timer but its nearly impossible to even get a job setting chokers, i know iv been around harrassing log companys, and there only cutting back. does this mean that young fallers are just going to be SOL when it comes to working?

 

[GASoline71]

Depends on your area... Up here in the North Sound of Washington state... not many guys are gettin' hired on.

But down in Central WA... there are jobs open. Especially for new chokers/chasers. We gotta have somebody to laugh at.

Gary

 

[Gologit]

That all looks good on paper, but who's going to pay for all that training and certification?
Around here fallers don't make enough to afford 2 years of classroom/field training.
The logging outfit's sure can't afford to send someone to school for 2 years before they can actually put them to work.
There's hardly any mills left, so they probably don't need the extra expense.
That only leaves the gubment, and I'd just as soon see them keep their noses out of private industry.

When I started falling timber it was on the job training. If you were lucky an "old timer" would take you under his wing, and teach you. The guy that taught me would look at some of the new guys and say that the only thing anyone should be showing them was how to flip burgers.
In my opinion more can be learned in 3 month from an old timer, than 2 years in a classroom.

Andy

Well said. We deal with enough government in our work now, we don't need any more.

Smokechase is concerned with safety and I think we can all agree he has our best interests at heart. But...I don't need some government guy to tell me whether or not I'm good enough to fall timber. The years and the stumps have already said all that needs to be said about my qualifications.

Younger guys are always coming around wanting to learn to fall timber. Like Andy says...some of them ought to be flipping burgers but every once in awhile a good one comes along. I, and all the other guys with gray hair and wrinkles, can teach them what they need to know. Let's keep the government out of it.

 

[Metals406]

That all looks good on paper, but who's going to pay for all that training and certification?
Around here fallers don't make enough to afford 2 years of classroom/field training.
The logging outfit's sure can't afford to send someone to school for 2 years before they can actually put them to work.
There's hardly any mills left, so they probably don't need the extra expense.
That only leaves the gubment, and I'd just as soon see them keep their noses out of private industry.

When I started falling timber it was on the job training. If you were lucky an "old timer" would take you under his wing, and teach you. The guy that taught me would look at some of the new guys and say that the only thing anyone should be showing them was how to flip burgers.
In my opinion more can be learned in 3 month from an old timer, than 2 years in a classroom.

Andy

Well said. We deal with enough government in our work now, we don't need any more.

Smokechase is concerned with safety and I think we can all agree he has our best interests at heart. But...I don't need some government guy to tell me whether or not I'm good enough to fall timber. The years and the stumps have already said all that needs to be said about my qualifications.

Younger guys are always coming around wanting to learn to fall timber. Like Andy says...some of them ought to be flipping burgers but every once in awhile a good one comes along. I, and all the other guys with gray hair and wrinkles, can teach them what they need to know. Let's keep the government out of it.

:agree2: :agree2:

 

[slowp]

Now I know how to get off work early.

Yes, And then you create more work (job security?) for me cuz I usually have to write letters and such for giving you the rest of the day or week off. But never complain as you go home, about "There won't be enough money for Christmas because you shut us down. Our kids won't get any presents."

Actually happened.



And, from observation and many years of being part of it, once you got the govt. involved, you have opened a big can of worms as far as training. Most of the fallers around here take it very seriously when they are training a new guy, and it seems to work. Each area has it's own methods and traditions and there's usually a good reason for doing it the local way.

 

[2dogs]

And, from observation and many years of being part of it, once you got the govt. involved, you have opened a big can of worms as far as training. Most of the fallers around here take it very seriously when they are training a new guy, and it seems to work. Each area has it's own methods and traditions and there's usually a good reason for doing it the local way.

That can't be right. I saw on Ax Men how new employees are trained. The guy with the loudest voice yells at the new guy and tells him to go cut down a tree without killing himself.