JapMax

[TimberMcPherson]

Alot has to be said for the japanese cars, the civic was a rust bucket but it did revolutionise the motor industry. New laws were going to be put into place in the US but all the traditional car makers got together and said "nope the new engine polution laws cant be met by us so youll have to loosen them."
Since this represented all the US automakers it looked like the law had to change, then a small company that was known for making motorcycles said that they had made an engine, the CVC that could pass the laws, thus the CIVIC was born and with it the other car makers had to up there game.

Almost all forms forms of manufacturing has benefited from japanese and chinese influence as much as from german or US influence.

 

[Derek]

The hub of our economy in Australia, the farmers and prouducers, live by there jap utes TOYOTA 4wd's (allways white for some reason) Ive seen them do 750,000 ks on their origional rings and bearings..Japs must be doing something right!

A rep at a motel our crew was staying at lent me a Shindiawa, a climbing saw, (wanted some feed back) sorry dont remember the model. A nice little saw for the occaisional user but i sent it down and swapped it for the 020 but mind you about a grands difference in price,you get what you pay for..

The old man bought a Holden "Vaccationer" off the show room floor. (25 years ago) Peices of it were flying off it on the way home the rust in it was shocking.. Dont know how good the sheet metal was, but he kicked up a stink about it and (later) they replaced the car..

It was deemed that the metal was allright, the problem was in the delay in painting it (long weekend) Hence we have/had an expression in Australia "Friday afternoon car" which refered to the cars that rusted to early verses a same model that dident.

Good to see the work ehtic has improved alot.

Really is there anything "origanal" any more? I mean they invented the wheel a long time ago. As they did the chainsaw.
Since then its been IMPROVEMENT on an origional idea. The way tecnolagy is improving rapidly the only chance to improve it again, will be with the aid of computers, somthing that takes alot of learning (look at me 38 and still tring to get a grip on cut and paste) and who are the most dedicated students in the world??
IMO the japs.

Aussie do you drive a dyna 300?

I'll be keeping mine(petrol) for ages,the only reason i'd change is for the 300 great little trucks!! Take care ..Derek..

 

[a_lopa]

mitsubishi canter, factory tip

 

[Saw Man]

Would like to interject an additional viewpoint.

People are human no matter where you go. Human core traits don't change. Cultural backrounds, and education do influence create, and change viewpoints.

Not race by itself is better at manufacturing saws, cars, trucks, what have you than any other. Have worked directly with American, Japanese, German, and Swedish makers. Been in not only plants, but test labs. Recently toured a Komatsu facility.

They're all trying to do the same thing, just in different ways.

Major influencing differences are: Type of company target customer, Natural resources available, Manufacturing facilities, Human resources, "Gge of manufacturing" in a world market, and Climatic regions.

Target Customer---Dolmar, Echo, Homelite, Husqvarna, Jonsereds, McCulloch(they're back), Poulan, Red Max , Stihl, Shindiawa. Look at their marketing strategy, the overall quality of equipment, and today's product spread. Who is it applealing to when all mixed together. Goes to company stockholders, and management viewpoints.

Natural Resources---Countries with a greater variety, and quanity can build more, cheaper, faster. Have over the years....slowly dumbed down much of their quality because of lower replacement costs. This includes not just the initial purchase price, but the cost to service. As countries wage scales increase thru better economic development wage scales have to rise. Easily seen in developed countries VS develpoing countries VS 3rd world countries.

On the flip side, countries with fewer natural resources that have to import to manufacture have generally produced higher quality because products must last longer. Japan is a great example of both.

Manufacturing Facilities---Age of plants, rebuilding from wars, outside investment all go to costs, and "Economy of Scale".

Climatic regions---Countries experiencing the four major weather patterns, have developed higher levels of quality manufacturing, and have had more technological developments.

If one wants to believe that any race builds something better because of the race, that's just economic blindness , not having all the facts (not saying I do) which providie a broader view, racial bias, and in some cases just willful ignorance by not exploring facts.

American saw makers died because of wrong viewpoints.
Toyota has stood for years on quality. They probably will overtake Ford in a few years as #2 world wide.
German, and Swedish companies have gotten so big, they have lost some viewpoints on quality issues.
The ego drive to be the world's largest between Stihl and Husqvarna, has opened eyes to other products of great quality.

The auto industry is alot better because of competition, let's not miss that in this industry.

 

[Saw Man]

Just one more tid bit.

Many companies today are FORCED to use four cycles, and catalytic mufflers, and or both because between the engines of:
Echo's Tornado
Maryauma's AE/CE
Red Max's Strato Charged
Tanaka's Pure Fire..........
...............they have so many PATENTS on two cycle processes, the 'big boys' are...so far behind, that if they got any further behind, their nose would be in their own a$$.

 

[joelamb]

First of all were talking "ChainSaws" not car's or trucks. You think what you want about Quality but, I'll take European Quality anyday. Some may think Stihl and Husky are not keeping up with the times but they aren't #1 and 2 for nothing!

 

[Crofter]

Stihl/Elux might be in first place in saw sales; Ford/Gm were tops in cars. They aren't any longer! Resting on your laurels gets you run over and whining, not winning!
Keep an eye on what Jerry is doing and don't take him for granted.

"Pride goeth befor a fall"

 

[joelamb]

First place in saw sales,

They must be doing something right! Frank

 

[NeTree]

Crofter...

Remember Tucker?

 

[Crofter]

Originally posted by joelamb
First place in saw sales,

They must be doing something right! Frank

Its not getting to the top that is the most important; its staying there that counts. It is really easy to press home a hammerlock on someone that is preoccupied patting himself on the back.

Netree. Bucky Fuller had some similar ideas. Sometimes politics plays strange tricks. Success has many faces.

"The Tucker never entered full production, but its design epitomized automotive trends that were new and significant in the immediate postwar years: avant-garde styling, innovative mechanical features, awakening interest in passenger safety, and efforts by small manufacturers to capture a larger share of the new-car market. The Tucker was an exaggeration of these trends and evidence that the desire for change was strong enough to move some fairly radical ideas from the drawing board to the production stage."

 

[Saw Man]

joelamb:

Worlds' largest selling #1 saw in volume....Poulan/Poulan Pro.
#1 Brand name Stihl.
There's a difference.

We are talking about saws, but using examples of what is happening with other products relative to the conversation. Watch and see what's been happening historically to many different types of products.

GS3800 is about $260. Don't think that's expensive for a pro saw.
Good power curve, easy on the hands.

GZ4000 is $299. Again not expensive for a pro. Haven't spent much time with one yet, but it's guts are good.
World's first EPA rated saw meeting 2005 requirements.
Saw uses 20-30% less fuel, and emits about 65% less HC's.
Not using a catalytic muffler, engine is very similar to any other modern two cycle.

Stihl just paid lots of $$$ to John Deere to try and make a engine JD had that JD couldn't get to work. It's in a Stuttgart lab.
They also just partnered with Mercedes Benz for emissions.

Japanese did that years ago. Guess who's ahead now in design?

Features you listed are on a string trimmer engine, not a chain saw.
But that two bolt, anti rotational cylinder-crankcase is really qiute innovative,....and works.

GS5000 is around $399. Again not expensive for a pro saw.
Check out earlier Red Max posts. Check with Dolmar Dan on his findings. He's got a good track record on building saws.

EPA,....you, me, and all the rest of us will have it,.... whether we like it or not. They have to build things that way, it's the law.
Too many problems are blamed on emissions by ignorant dealers.
It has it's share, but ignorance is no excuse.

I find more fault with factory's and distributors....not teaching enough, and not being quite as truthful as they should be.

I'm thankful that they did kick in some of these laws, as it has forced companies to spend alot of $$$$ on R&D they never, never would have spent.
Because of it, we have better designed engines, carbs, and ignition systems. Not to mention cleaner engines that are getting more powerful.
Is it all perfect....heck no. But without it engines wouldn't be as advanced as they are....today.

All I'm suggesting is things are changing, and we should keep open minds. Some good things are on the horizion, and just like football teams, rankings change.

 

[glens]

Originally posted by joelamb
First place in saw sales,

They must be doing something right!

50,000 Frenchmen can't be wrong...  I'm a fan of Stihl products, but that argument is poor.  99% of all IBM-PCs sold come with MS Windows, but it's just about the worst product available, in usability, in stability, and in security.  For any typical hardware configuration it also runs about the slowest.

A good marketing department usually has little bearing with the quality of the engineering department.

An old-timer at the Hyster factory over in Danville, IL told me once about the time the Japs came for a visit with their cameras and asked if they could have a look around.  Sure, they could, and 10 years later Hyster couldn't compete with them.

Glen

 

[Big Dutchman]

OK SawMan I just went to the Redmax Web site.

3800 AV 37.2cc 16" bar $359.99 sug.retail price

4550 AV $469.99

They didn't have the GZ4000 Price Listed but,
This is the strato-charged motor I was referring too, built for a chainsaw.

Now, Do you really think Stihl is going just sit there and let someone come in and run them out off business or be beaten by technology? I think not! They're still sitting very high on the mountain and its going to take a lot to knock them off.

Big Dutchman
One Rugged Individual
[email protected]

 

[Bill G]

Originally posted by Big Dutchman
OK SawMan I just went to the Redmax Web site.

3800 AV 37.2cc 16" bar $359.99 sug.retail price

4550 AV $469.99

They didn't have the GZ4000 Price Listed but,
Big Dutchman
One Rugged Individual
[email protected]

You may want to price the saws from a dealer. The price of the Red Max has been on the decline as they gain popularity. Looking at the MSRP is not the way to buy a saw. Talk to the dealer that you plan on doing business with. How do you think Stihl got to be where they are. The still rely on the local dealer to sell and service their product. It mat be true some dealers will only sell at teh MSRP but most will work with a customer that is going to work with them.

Bill

 

[Saw Man]

Glens,
Wow, you brought back memories.
I was in the Material Handling Industry before OPE & Firearms. Designed & sold tires & some attachments, then got into sales 100%. Called on GE, Bethlehem Steel, MacK Trucks, Dana, ICI Dupont, Getty, Sunoco, etc.
Remember the Datsun, lift trucks, and how much we were told they were inferior, etc. Yes they weren't as styled, and didn't have some Americanized features, but they kept on running.
In California Mack Trucks had a plant, and the union guys there were so mad, they deliberately ran them into things, and even off the shipping docks.
The mechanics liked them so much they would fix them right back up. They eventually got them to the Maryland, and PA plants.
Took me along time to take the blindfold off my eyes AND brain. They were better than what I had to sell, and being smaller companies responded faster that we could. Kind of like the way Dolmar has become.
Raymond, Moto Truc, Baker, Allis Chalmers all big names then.
Recently had a chance to look at some new Clark, Yale, Hyster, and Toyota's. Hands down #1 was Toyota, #2 Yale.
Things really changed, I was shocked.
Truth be told, we just didn't listen, spend $$$ on more R&D, got too big, and respond to what was needed as we should have.

Big Dutchman,
Bill G is right about prices. Red max posts MSRP, not MSSP, or regional prices. They just hired a new marketing, advertising guy (Ben) and one of his future projects is to clean up and upgrade the web site.
Red Max part of Komatsu/Zenoah is a small company with great products, no real big bucks advertising budget, and Dealers ONLY sales. Supposed to set up only dealers who come to schools, stock a reasonable amount of parts for their sales, and are forbidden to sell to Low Baller, , Sears and Breakdown, Homely Despot, etc.

Try to check a good top handle GS3100T. Pro saw with good power, Dust Free airfiltration, ergonomic design, unique oil tank in the rear for working balance.
Not a Stihl MS200, or Husqvarana 338, but it's on sale for $199.

"I never got sold on names, but what the product did for me first".

 

[Derek]

moreinfo

Hi there Saw Man...Is the gs3100t new? How long before it hits
Aust,?...

No it wouldent be a 338xpt or An o2o, will it perform better than the shindaiwa 300s ( the saw I refered to above but couldent remember model). Heres the only koms I can find over here..

The very next reply will show what we pay for Brand names here..

Regards Derek..

 

[Derek]

Quick reaility check on the 020 over here..

 

[Saw Man]

Was at the TCI show, in both the Dolmar(last day) and Red Max booth(second day).
Wasn't me....but I have run most every model of most every major, and minor company.
MS200, & 338 are good saws,but it's not just about outcutting.
Reliability, durability, ergonomics, emissions, market share, user needs, and last profit are influences also.

Agree with you in that I would like to see a 'burner'.

To build a better mouse trap, that works as fast, but is better in other ways, and if...if it can be done at a better price will greatly increase sales.

GS3100T is a third generation. Started with a main platform then improved.
At $199 it's hard to beat.

Suspect we'll see a 34-39 cc in a year or two. EPA standards are kicking in real hard soon, and that influences what is released

 

[NeTree]

Originally posted by Derek
Quick reaility check on the 020 over here..

Is that for real?

 

[joelamb]

SawMan, You've convinced me to stick with whats good, Stihl!