Pioneer chainsaws

[pioneerguy600]

mickeyd;
No this saw is not used at all now, its part of my 80 odd vintage chainsaws. The engager should just twist off while sliding up the spiraled spline of the rope rotor. I have seen them stuck on the splines quite badly at times but never so hard that they could not be separated by inserting a pry between the two parts. A flat screwdriver [ slot type ] should work , just push and wiggle it in between the two parts and the engager should rise and turn up the spline. If it will not then the whole mechanism is useless.
Pioneerguy600

 

[RobShelton]

Taking my :censored: spanking

Hey Jerry! I stand corrected! It's about 3:00 AM here and I just got back from taking a look at what I have. Seems I had it confused with another saw - a (gasp)Homelite. Or maybe it was another of my many engines I have been fooling with. I Sold my first Farmsaw several years back when I moved here to crackerbox land just got this Farmsaw last week. Wasn't thinking of the spirals made into the rewind pulley and pinion gear. Those do the actual pushing and retracting of the pinion gear meshing into the flywheel. As for the other "spring" I was pushing, well I should have taken a hint from my own post where Pioneer calls it a "Friction yoke" as it keeps the pinion from rotating with the starter pulley. The spring on the decompression link does lock the link and hold the pinion away from the flywheel when the saw is running.

Guess the good news is mickeyd will know exactly what he needs to fix his saw! The friction yoke will get him back to where he was, a new spring for the decomp lever will help, and looks like a new pinion gear might help too. mickeyd says he used this saw for years, so that is a very small price to pay for maintenance!

While I absolutely hate making a fool of myself at least this was for a good cause. However I have done worse, but that was for a pretty woman. Something about you having a chainsaw collection tells me you are not my type so I'm going to have to keep this one quiet!

 

[pioneerguy600]

Rob;
You have the action pretty well figured out now, when I try to describe the action of the starter mechanism to someone who is not an avid mechanic I try to keep it simple so that they don`t feel overwhelmed by over technical explanations. The real work of advancing and retracting the engager is carried out by the rotor and its splines. Turn the rotor forward and the engager advances , turn the rotor back and the engager retracts. This will only work if the friction yoke is in its place. The other thing working along with this is the decomp actuator with its metal strip spring and that helps hold the engager back away from the flywheel,it is not the main force involved to retract the engager but I think it is important to have it in place to keep the engager back away from the flywheel. One of the biggest problems i have encountered with this system is the materials that make up the rotor becomes tacky, they tend to get sticky with age and eventually will stick fast to the engager. Also applying lubricants will only worsen the problem, seems that the lubricants soften the material that makes it stick worse. Spray silicone has been the only thing that helps, the type that is applied and it dries so it can`t be felt to the touch. Hope this all helps mickeyd get his starter repaired or at least help him understand the workings of the components without getting too carried away on the technical points of operation.
Pioneerguy600

 

[mickeyd]

Hi Rob;
then pull the cord, without the wire piece that wraps around the engager it will only rotate with the rotor and not rise up the spiraled spline.
Pioneerguy600

that is exactly what my starter is doing
MD

 

[propliner]

Farmsaw

Hi Rob;
The piece of wire that wraps around the engager actually is not a spring at all, it holds the engager just enough to cause the engager to slip up the spiraled spline of rotor. If you remove it the engager just turns with the rotor, it will not slip up the spiraled spline of the rotor. That wire slips up and down the post its attached to on the cover to allow the engager to move, it has no return ability at all. The position of the decomp actuator on the engager does not matter much at all, the little spring steel clip does not have enough pressure to hurt the material the engager is made from, by letting it ride in the position its in is like adding a slight bit of extra tension to return the engager back down the spline of the rotor. To see how each piece works just remove one piece at a time and then pull the cord, without the wire piece that wraps around the engager it will only rotate with the rotor and not rise up the spiraled spline.
Pioneerguy600

This is exactly how the engager works. The wire yoke spring applies radial squeeze pressure to the engager to try and prevent it from turning. Since it is restricted from turning, it pushes against the spiral gear of the pulley, and slides outwards. When it reaches its furthest outer travel, it has no choice but to turn with the pulley. At this point the engager has its teeth meshed with the flywheel and turns it as well. Clear as mud, right?

If after you install the new yoke spring, the pulley does not seem to be engaging all the time, you'll have to bend the yoke spring to become tighter around the engager.

Either spring will work, Farmsaw or P26. If using the P26 spring you'll need a shouldered washer the prevent outward overtravel as discussed earlier.

It's a really interesting setup and takes some thought to figure it out.
__________________

 

[propliner]

An additional note or two: almost ALL of the problems encountered with this system are caused by loose or broken yoke springs. It's a good idea to have a couple of spares on hand.

Also, this system needs to be kept fairly clean to prevent wear between the pulley and engager.

I have some of these parts if anyone needs them. The pulleys are rare and so are the original Farmsaw yoke springs.

Also, as others mentioned, the decompression lever just happens to work off of the engager. It plays no role in the starter system.

 

[pioneerguy600]

An additional note or two: almost ALL of the problems encountered with this system are caused by loose or broken yoke springs. It's a good idea to have a couple of spares on hand.

Also, this system needs to be kept fairly clean to prevent wear between the pulley and engager.

I have some of these parts if anyone needs them. The pulleys are rare and so are the original Farmsaw yoke springs.

Also, as others mentioned, the decompression lever just happens to work off of the engager. It plays no role in the starter system.

Propliner;
You say the decompressor lever does not play a role in the starter system but if you remove it or it comes out of place the spiral splines on the rotor will shear off especially near the outer end, these saws have too much compression for this starter system to handle without the decomp in working order, I have personally seen a couple saws that had this happen to them when the decomp did not function properly. Also I have seen where the lever was removed or missing and the engager will rub against the running flywheel and strip the points off the engager.
Pioneerguy600

 

[propliner]

What I should have said is that it plays no direct role in the engagement of the starter. It does have a couple of side benefits as you mention, particularly in reducing starting force on the meshing parts. I never thought about it holding the engaging gear from sneaking up the pulley while the saw is running but I'm sure it does help with that.

 

[crane]

Iel Ra/hc

There has been a lot of posting lately on the ra models. Got my itch going again, so I took a look at mine. Long story short....got the HC up and running along with the RA. Now for the questions.....

1, Can sprockets still be found for these? Are there any cross overs or conversions? The .404 sprocket on the RA is shot!

2, Jerry mentioned bearings and seals could be found at Motion Bearing. Do you have and address or phone number. I can't find a dealer out here in Alberta. Will order them from the east coast if I have to. Also corresponding part numbers from Motion

3, does anyone have, or know of a replacement for the fuel bowl on the HC. Mine is cracked thru in two places. I don't think it is repairable(the cracks being small and submersed in fuel all the time).

The plan is to strip, rebuild and paint both of these saws(eventually). Was just trying to get the parts all in order first.

I think that the fuel bowl is beyond repair, but post away if you have any ideas.
BTW, I got the missing carb grommet from the HC. Thanks Jerry for posting the closeup pics of it. Thanks to petesoldsaw for the info on the above saws. Now I got some work ahead of me LOL

Drew

 

[crane]

Nu-17

I've posted this question before, but got no reply. I'll try again. I've got a Nu-17 and it has the 12" bar. Most of the pics I see of these saws also have the short bar. Why does a saw in the 90cc class have such a short bar? The saw is just way too heavy for it to make a limbing saw. Was it for some type of milling? I was going to put a NOS 26" pioneer dura rail on it, but that bar just looks WAY TOO GOOD on the IEL RA. Was just curious.

BTW are the clutch's interchangeable between the Nu-17 and the RA/HC series. Found a NOS clutch listed for a NU-17 and wondered if it would work on a RA


Drew

 

[WesternSaw]

crane

Hi Drew
Heh ,I can look through what I have and let you know today, or tomorrow,but someone here can probably tell you before I can
Lawrence.

 

[pioneerguy600]

I've posted this question before, but got no reply. I'll try again. I've got a Nu-17 and it has the 12' bar. Most of the pics I see of these saws also have the short bar. Why does a saw in the 90cc class have such a short bar? The saw is just way too heavy for it to make a limbing saw. Was it for some type of milling? I was going to put a NOS 26" pioneer dura rail on it, but that bar just looks WAY TOO GOOD on the IEL RA. Was just curious.

BTW are the clutch's interchangeable between the Nu-17 and the RA/HC series. Found a NOS clutch listed for a NU-17 and wondered if it would work on a RA


Drew

I don`t think you have a 12 foot bar on your NU-17 , probably a miss print. Yes the NU-17 and the 450 were the lightweight saws of the era, 16 and 18 " bars were more common and 20" sometimes used. The RA`s and 600 series, 700D ,750 and 800 saws were the alternative saws from IEL and Pioneer at that time. NU-17 and 450 with its other 400 series saws were the compacts of that time and were more for firewood cutting than a logging saw. I do think the clutches are the same , they will interchange.
Pioneerguy600

 

[crane]

Jerry,
Sorry about the 12 foot misprint LOL, I fixed it. Thanks for the info, now know what to do.

I have some parts lined up, but the guy wants to trade for P-51 recoil pulley(430609). Are these still available? I don't have any P series saws.

Drew

 

[Jacob J.]

Jerry,
Sorry about the 12 foot misprint LOL, I fixed it. Thanks for the info, now know what to do.

I have some parts lined up, but the guy wants to trade for P-51 recoil pulley(430609). Are these still available? I don't have any P series saws.

Drew

Drew- I can get you one of those if you want. I have a whole pallet of P-series parts. I'm currently using them as trading stock for parts for my older Pioneers and IELs.

 

[pioneerman]

Yes, the clutches will interchange on the NU-17 and the RA. A new clutch superceded the original clutch. The part number for it was 470789. This clutch was similar to the P60 clutch. 3 replaceable shoes with a coil spring around the outside.

 

[Jacob J.]

Yes, the clutches will interchange on the NU-17 and the RA. A new clutch superceded the original clutch. The part number for it was 470789. This clutch was similar to the P60 clutch. 3 replaceable shoes with a coil spring around the outside.

Jerry- is the only difference being that the P-60 clutch hub is splined?

 

[pioneerman]

No, the parts are different on the P60 (part numbers are all different). I meant that they are similar in design, 3 floating shoes held by a garter spring(new design clutch for NU-17). Sorry for the miscommunication.

 

[crane]

Hc

Have been playing around lately on my IEL HC. Got it all cleaned up and tinkered with it a bit. Finally got it up and running. Was out back cutting on a big log I keep out there for just such occasions.
Good news first. Saw is a good runner. Other than some issues with the bar(rails are not square, heavily burred on the one side), the saw will really work good with a 16" bar buried.

Now the Bad News.......

Upon some investigation(thanks to the members here), The recoil cage appears to be from a HM. Notice how it fits, does not mate up well with the casting. Also has a good crack in it that although does not hinder the starting of the saw now, will pose problems I suspect, down the road. All of the pics I've seen have a fully barred cage on the HC, but this one, the bars are gone from the back like a HM.

The left hand handle bracket was also broken. I think there was a cast tang there where the bolt went, and it broke off. They tried to weld it first and melted a bunch of holes, so they patched it. Going to need a replacement fan housing for sure

Not to mention a fuel bowl, sprocket, and misc small items. I think, this saw will have to sit as a parts saw for now






.

 

[crane]

Iel ra

Well, no luck with the HC, so I decided to pull the RA out. I got the saw as part of another deal(You want that saw? You gotta take that other one too!). Came home with the saw missing the whole recoil and a pile of parts in a box. What luck, all the missing parts are in the box and now back on the saw. Had a quick look around and cleaned up the carb. By passed the tank and fuel bowl, and I got it running. Idled nicely for a few minutes. Shut it off and then broke the recoil handle when I went to restart.:censored:
Oh well, looks like all in all this saw has no issues

The bar was given to me by the mechanic down the road. He traded it for something so long ago, he can't remember. Sat in his tool box for years.
Question: does the Pioneer logo missing from the cover screw on? What I mean is, if I go ahead and Paint this cover and come up with a logo later, can it be attached?
I see what Jerry and Jacob mean, start working on these and they can get a little addictive.

Drew

 

[pioneerguy600]

Well, no luck with the HC, so I decided to pull the RA out. I got the saw as part of another deal(You want that saw? You gotta take that other one too!). Came home with the saw missing the whole recoil and a pile of parts in a box. What luck, all the missing parts are in the box and now back on the saw. Had a quick look around and cleaned up the carb. By passed the tank and fuel bowl, and I got it running. Idled nicely for a few minutes. Shut it off and then broke the recoil handle when I went to restart.:censored:
Oh well, looks like all in all this saw has no issues

The bar was given to me by the mechanic down the road. He traded it for something so long ago, he can't remember. Sat in his tool box for years.
Question: does the Pioneer logo missing from the cover screw on? What I mean is, if I go ahead and Paint this cover and come up with a logo later, can it be attached?
I see what Jerry and Jacob mean, start working on these and they can get a little addictive.

Drew

Logo pushes on,no screws, three pins from top part push through a ring like a washer underneath with three matching holes, ends of pins swelled with heat and pushed back a bit with a special hollow tool, locks the logo in place. Hard to find nowadays , a complete cover brings a pretty good price.
Pioneerguy600