Shaver Improvement Forum

[fletcher0780]

I sat my 250 on a 2" piece of foam. Legs are pipe so it cut threw the insulation and sat on the concrete. Worked well.

Did you have it running like that last year, if so how did it work?

 

[John D]

I haven't done a single thing with my shaver other than draining it. I'm waiting for a friend to come over with his excavator so I can level off the area around it for a shed and lift it up on some blocks. I still need to pull it apart and insulate it and I'm trying to figure out the best way to do the bottom. I plan to use that high density foam with the silver coating the same way most of you have used the blueboard, but I may just spray foam it?

My drillspot solenoid worked well all winter.

Same here! We have had the wettest June in history here,Ive been swamped with summer work as a result.I just have to pop the pallet forks on the SS and move it,form up the area,and pour the 4000psi concrete.GOing to raise it up,insulate better and hope for the best.Im hoping i have time to get everything done i wanted too at this rate.

 

[KYDave]

New Guy

Hi Y'all,
I got a Shaver 165 a few months back, and am looking at starting installation by the first week of September.

I sure was glad to find this thread...lots of info.

As I'm accumulating the supplies to make my pipe runs, I wonder where to buy the Solarguard insulation?

I've found one online group called Cabbot.

Also, what specific flavor of Solarguard to use? I've been looking at this one
http://www.shopcabotcomponents.com/rfs-408.html

I have to make a total run of 200', owb to 2 house furnaces, and 120' of that is outdoors. So I'm looking at trying using either one 6" flex-pipe or two 4" flex-pipes as the conduit. I have to pull 4 1" pex and two 3/4" pex, as well as the two 12/3 wires.

The soil horizon here will make digging a trench below the frostline a rather optomistic endeavour, so insulation is going to really count.

Would you all recomend just wrapping the pex in Solarguard? I was looking at at least putting the send lines in those 6' poly pipe insulation sleeves from Lowe's.

Your thoughts appreciated.

David Breeze

 

[yodayoda]

Hi Y'all,
I got a Shaver 165 a few months back, and am looking at starting installation by the first week of September.

I sure was glad to find this thread...lots of info.

As I'm accumulating the supplies to make my pipe runs, I wonder where to buy the Solarguard insulation?

I've found one online group called Cabbot.

Also, what specific flavor of Solarguard to use? I've been looking at this one
http://www.shopcabotcomponents.com/rfs-408.html

I have to make a total run of 200', owb to 2 house furnaces, and 120' of that is outdoors. So I'm looking at trying using either one 6" flex-pipe or two 4" flex-pipes as the conduit. I have to pull 4 1" pex and two 3/4" pex, as well as the two 12/3 wires.

The soil horizon here will make digging a trench below the frostline a rather optomistic endeavour, so insulation is going to really count.

Would you all recomend just wrapping the pex in Solarguard? I was looking at at least putting the send lines in those 6' poly pipe insulation sleeves from Lowe's.

Your thoughts appreciated.

David Breeze

Dave I ran mine inside 4"pvc glued all the joints and wrapped the pex in the foil faced bubble wrap insulation, I was very worried about using any type insulation that loses all it's R-value if it gets wet.I also t'd off the 4'pvc at its lowest point and ran a drain with a capped end, just incase some water did get in, I could drain it. I couldn't believe it but water does get in on heavy rains.All it takes is one glue joint thats not perfect.

I would be very afraid of running the flexible drain tile type pipe, from what I've read it's inevitable it will eventually let water in, then you have a mess, all your heat going into the ground.

Knowing what I know now, I would have forgot about the potable hot water coil in my shaver, bought a side arm heat exchanger and bit the bullet and bought the expensive insulated pipe for my underground part, we have a local Central Boiler dealer that carries the logstore brand for around $12 a foot.If youve already bought pex try and return it or use it where it doesn't run underground. Thats what I wish I had done, even if I had to save up some money for another year before installing.

By the way your username "KY" Dave had me a little worried untill I saw you were from Kentucky. LOL

 

[Windwalker7]

I got my Solar Guard directly from Shaver/Weld Rite.

Ran 2, 1 inch pex and 2, 3/4 inch pex in 6" schedule 40 pipe.


Stuffing all that solar guard wrppaed pex in a 4" pipe will be hard to do.


I was worried about the flexible conduit getting a puncture so I went with schedule 40 pipe glued together.

 

[KYDave]

So if I put two 1" & 1 3/4" pex and adequate solarguard or bubble wrap insulation into a 4" pipe, do you guys think it will fit ok? Then I'd just need to lay two such pipes into the trench.

BTW, the trench gets initial backfill with either small gravel or else milled topsoil, then the rough stuff.

Also, I understand the Shaver wiring diagram for running one pump/furnace. Exactly how do you wire up for two pumps/furnaces ? Simply duplicating the hookup starts getting too many wires (too much electricity ) to the blower fan, it seems.

Dave

Yes, we do have many jellys & jams in KY. And we also have a lot of fun when we get together. But you should pronounce it "Kentucky-Dave" ;>

 

[ngzcaz]

RE : Solarguard.. I would interwrap them so that neither is touching the other in the width of the roll ( approx 3 or 4 feet at a time ) Overlap it so that you can just slide it in the pipe. On the first section leave approx a foot of the pex completely unwrapped. Drill a hole in the pipes about 2 inches from the end. Tie a nylon rope thru the holes. Drop the rope in the pipe so that you have some left out of the pipe to pull. From the other end, wrap your pipe and seal it with S.S. or aluminum tape sideways and when you slide the next piece of solarguard to meet that one. I also wrapped the tape around the three pipes so that nothing was exposed. You can do any length but is a bit time consuming. Having a partner is almost a must. One pulls the other slides/pushes the now one unit of pipes in the larger pipe. I put everything in one 6 inch pipe but I only ran 2 pieces of pex.

Do this in the warm sun and it will go easier.

 

[Windwalker7]

I had a 100' run. Four inch pipe would be a tight fit in my opinion. I used 6" pipe.

I used one of those snakes/drain openers (coiled flat metal) to get my pull rope through the pipe after it was glued.

Pushed the snake through, tied the rope and pulled it back through.

Tied/ duct taped the solarguard wrapped pex and pulled it through.

I did not seperate the pex with the solar guard. I just wrapped it all together and used zip ties over top the solarguard. I run the pump 24/7, so I figured it would eventually all be the same temperature.

I admit it was a royal PIA getting it all wrapped and stuffed in the pipe.

 

[Windwalker7]

If you can find someone close to you that has their Shaver hooked up, might be worthwhile to go look at their set up. It certainly helps you to understnd and plan your set up.

I was in your shoes and can understand how you feel and your concerns.


Seeing another set up helped me understand much more.

 

[KYDave]

I've recieved my pex, wire & drainage pipe.

Since I have to make a 110' run from the owb to the house foundation, I bought a 250" roll of black non-perforated drainage pipe. That lets me make two runs from the owb to the house.

One run will have hot, one run will have cold. Each run will have two 1' pex and one 3/4' pex + a 12-3 wire. Insulation will be the double aluminumsingle bubble insulation. I think I have enough to wrap the pex bundles about 3 times, and lots of extra space within the 4" black pipe.

The black pipe will be well beded with round gravel and milled topsoil, so no crushing or intruding rocks should present a problem. Wishfull thinking?

Since my total run from owb to house furnaces is @ 200', I bought 300' rolls. That lets me feed pure pex thru the black pipe before I begin insulating the last 110'. Should be an easy pull.

The left over pex will serve to heat my shop.
After 20 years of suiting up on weekends and "having fun" in my shop, I can't wait to turn on the heat.

David Breeze

 

[KYDave]

Well, I got my 120' long trench dug from the owb to the side of the house. Two foot + depth, looks good. My wife & I started laying out the Pex, what a hoot. That's the squirreliest stuff I've ever seen. We finally figured out to make a spool using two sawhorses was the way to unwind the pex so it laid somewhat flat.

We're running two 4" pipes, each with a 3/4" and two 1" pex and a 12/3 wire. We have gotten three layers of insulation wrapped, taped & zip-tied around the pex bundles.

So about those Ranco thermostats....all I see mentioned is the base model 1110000. It is rated nema 2. The Ranco ETC-141000 is identical to the Ranco ETC-111000 except that this unit is rated NEMA 4X. NEMA 4X means it is water and corrosion resistant and is suitable for outdoor installations or other locations where it may get wet or be subject to high humidity.

The nema 4 unit is a few bucks more, but seemingly worth it? Any thoughts?

David Breeze

 

[fletcher0780]

Well, I got my 120' long trench dug from the owb to the side of the house. Two foot + depth, looks good. My wife & I started laying out the Pex, what a hoot. That's the squirreliest stuff I've ever seen. We finally figured out to make a spool using two sawhorses was the way to unwind the pex so it laid somewhat flat.

We're running two 4" pipes, each with a 3/4" and two 1" pex and a 12/3 wire. We have gotten three layers of insulation wrapped, taped & zip-tied around the pex bundles.

So about those Ranco thermostats....all I see mentioned is the base model 1110000. It is rated nema 2. The Ranco ETC-141000 is identical to the Ranco ETC-111000 except that this unit is rated NEMA 4X. NEMA 4X means it is water and corrosion resistant and is suitable for outdoor installations or other locations where it may get wet or be subject to high humidity.

The nema 4 unit is a few bucks more, but seemingly worth it? Any thoughts?

David Breeze

as long as it is 120v triggered your good to go. I ran my 111000 all last year mounted inside my back door with no problems. Another option that may be worth more to you would be going to the two stage Ranco. You could set a low temp limit that would lock out your oil/gas/electric heat as long as your shaver water temp was above 130* degrees. I've got a second aquastat doing that for me, but would have done them both with one if I knew ahead of time.

On a side note, has anyone found a digital temp display compatible with the 0-10v output on the Ranco to monitor the boiler temp from inside your house?

 

[KYDave]

I've not seen anything about this in this thread, and not been thru the Forum, searching.

My neighbor has another brand owb, and likes it a lot, ran it all last summer & winter.

He tells me he has a bypas valve at his heat exchanger in the house. It is wired to the thermostat & furnace fan, I presume. He runs his pump 24/7, but the valve only opens the heat exchanger when heat is called for and the fan kicks on.

He says his installer ( an HVAC guy ) maintains that without taking the exchanger out of the loop when heat is not called for, there will be way too much heat wafting out of the house vents, thereby making it impossable to regulate the house temperature.

I sort of brushed this off, since his house is fairly new, less than 8 years old, and mine is well over 200 years old. I have a lot of natural ventillation ;> and don't think it will be such a factor.

But I guess I could see his point.

Any thoughts?

David Breeze

 

[headleyj]

I've not seen anything about this in this thread, and not been thru the Forum, searching.

My neighbor has another brand owb, and likes it a lot, ran it all last summer & winter.

He tells me he has a bypas valve at his heat exchanger in the house. It is wired to the thermostat & furnace fan, I presume. He runs his pump 24/7, but the valve only opens the heat exchanger when heat is called for and the fan kicks on.

He says his installer ( an HVAC guy ) maintains that without taking the exchanger out of the loop when heat is not called for, there will be way too much heat wafting out of the house vents, thereby making it impossable to regulate the house temperature.

I sort of brushed this off, since his house is fairly new, less than 8 years old, and mine is well over 200 years old. I have a lot of natural ventillation ;> and don't think it will be such a factor.

But I guess I could see his point.

Any thoughts?

David Breeze

I see what he's done, but don't necessarily agree it's impossible to regualte temp if you don't have a bypass valve.

Mine doesn't have a bypass valve, pump runs 24/7 and we can regulate fine...now I'm sure his way is more effecient, with less heat loss, but not necessarily impossible IMO.

 

[projectsho89]

KyDave,

I don't have such a bypass installed (yet).

The upstairs (2nd floor) bedroom whose air trunk lines are closest my exchanger gets a very warm natural draft . That room stayed very warm last winter when the exchanger was hot even the blower never ran. The bedroom on the other end of the upstairs requires a duct booster to keep it semi-comfortable when the blower is running.

Your HVAC guy has a good point.

 

[smus]

Wood orientation during burn

I have noticed that the wood burns away very quick at the front of the stove and slower toward the back due to the forced air mostly coming from that area. I have wondered if stacking the wood in the stove at an angle across the grate rather that with the grate would make any difference in burn times.
I have also thought it would be nice if there was a way to even the flow of forced air across the entire grate area rather than the small area at the front. I think a more complete burn would result and would not leave a bunch of coals and unburned wood at the back of the stove that I see each morning.

 

[KYDave]

I've noticed the same thing, the fire burns directly from the front of the grate, straight back to the bottom of the chimney pipe. It all burns, give time. I've wondered if strapping on ( welding this summer if it works ) a half pipe extension that would at least make the smoke/exhaust exit from the backside of the chimney pipe. The half pipe would face the front or the grate, and the smoke would go out on the backside.

BTW, I only found one flaw with my Shaver. The overflow pipe was not fully welded in place. There was a 1/8" hole where the weld was started and ended. It took me a couple of weeks to find it, but all of 15 minutes to mig weld it. No problems.

Also, I guess since I'm heating (?) a 4,000 sq ft + house that is more than 200 years old, and I have almost a total run of 200 ft from owb to house furnaces, my Shaver does a very nice job down to 25 degrees. Major reloading twice a day, with a moderate reload when I get home from work @ 4:30 works out well. Below 25 and it takes more reloads, which I can't do during the work week.

Soooo, I bought the coal shaker grates and have been experimenting with small amounts of coal. I get any amount of Stoler coal free, since I work in the Physical Plant at the University. But it is really too small, about golf ball size or smaller. This size will fall right thru the grates, and either wind up in the ash bin or clog up the grates. So I've been putting two coffe cans worth just on each side of the grate, in the front only.

The coal makes a big difference when it gets below 25 degrees. If I could find egg or stove coal, say tennis ball size or bigger, I'd be tempted to load in an entire bed of coal.

Also, the stoler is Kentucky bitumineous, which they say smokes. It does when it first light up. I guess Pennsylvania anthricite would be better. Problem is finding a dealer with some coal. No luck yet.

Any of you guys tried coal?

David Breeze
( you might know the winter I go to owb heat that we'd have two months of sub-artic air )

 

[fletcher0780]

KYDave,

Have you added any inlation to the Shaver? There is zero insulation under the boiler and not enough on the sides. You may find you can stretch out time between fillings a bit with more insulation. I'm heating about 4500 ft2 in CT with my 290.

 

[KYDave]

Fletcher,
I added plenty of insulation to the underside. The way I built the concrete pedestal, I was able to place loads of insulation to the underside ( I'd read about that in this thread ). I've not added anything to the sides, though. While tracking down the overflow pipe leak, I did have that one side off, it's easy enough. That will be on the list for summer improvements. I did shoot a can of expanding foam into the gap where the owb sits on the pedestal, for what thats worth. And I did open up the back door and put insulation in there.

BTW, I think it was you who was asking if anyone knew of a remote or wireless thermometer, so you could know your water temp without leaving the house. I've seen this recently:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Outdoor-wood-bo...aultDomain_0?hash=item3efbcf9bc3#ht_854wt_931

Rather long link, I hope it's correct.

David Breeze

 

[John D]

Just wanted to add an update here. I have been burning since oct 15th or so.Just this week,I decided to give the firebox a good cleaning,since over the holidays I burned a lot of paper,gift wrap,and carboard in there,and it was building up. After cleaning it became apparent that I need to do this more often,the efficency of the unit went up quite a bit,my wood consumption went down about 20% since the cleaning easliy,maybe more.Now I dump the ashes every 3 weeks or so,the ash bin was empty,the buildup was especially heavy in the rear of the unit where it is difficult to access and clean,sep on the 250 and bigger units,and the firebox is so deep,and the door so small.I used a hoe,and got the rear all cleaned nice,also scraped some creosote off the sides,and back.The improvement is more than i could have hoped for. I think i was blocking a good portion of the heat exchange area on the furnace,esp in the rear,the entire rear section had ashes insulating the rear exchange area.So anyone using more wood than usual should take look at how deep the ashes and coals have built up,and consider a good cleaning,I let mine burn down to almost nothing and the cleaning took about 1/2 hr to do a good job,well worth it,and the ash i got all over me...