Where has all the business gone?

[newsawtooth]

Business

There was a thread a little while back asking if Arboriculture is "Recession Proof"? It appears to be quite the opposite and may be the 'canary in the coal mine' for the economy. One of the first things to go is maintenance of landscaping, independent of storms or disturbances. My business has seemed to slow down a few weeks before the financial markets contract.

As for hacks and lowballers, Warren Buffett talks about impediments to entering a certain business dictating the relative profit margins of that business. It is in our best interest to make getting into the business as difficult as possible. For example mandatory licensing, insurance requirements, training and certification requirements, ect... I know this may be unpopular for some, but if we want to be treated like professionals, we have to do things professionally including creating impediments to entering the business.

 

[TreePointer]

There was a thread a little while back asking if Arboriculture is "Recession Proof"? It appears to be quite the opposite and may be the 'canary in the coal mine' for the economy. One of the first things to go is maintenance of landscaping, independent of storms or disturbances. My business has seemed to slow down a few weeks before the financial markets contract.

As for hacks and lowballers, Warren Buffett talks about impediments to entering a certain business dictating the relative profit margins of that business. It is in our best interest to make getting into the business as difficult as possible. For example mandatory licensing, insurance requirements, training and certification requirements, ect... I know this may be unpopular for some, but if we want to be treated like professionals, we have to do things professionally including creating impediments to entering the business.

I think Pennsylvania just moved in that direction.
http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/hic.aspx?id=4313
http://www.plna.com/content/?/government/sb-100-contractor-registration/who-must-register

I wonder how this affects arborists and tree services. Any PA professionals out there?

 

[mckeetree]

There was a thread a little while back asking if Arboriculture is "Recession Proof"? It appears to be quite the opposite and may be the 'canary in the coal mine' for the economy. One of the first things to go is maintenance of landscaping, independent of storms or disturbances. My business has seemed to slow down a few weeks before the financial markets contract.

As for hacks and lowballers, Warren Buffett talks about impediments to entering a certain business dictating the relative profit margins of that business. It is in our best interest to make getting into the business as difficult as possible. For example mandatory licensing, insurance requirements, training and certification requirements, ect... I know this may be unpopular for some, but if we want to be treated like professionals, we have to do things professionally including creating impediments to entering the business.

I think you are right.

 

[TackleTree]

My experience is when the market goes up there is a better chance of getting the price you want. Still tough for sales in the summer. Try it, won't hurt to try! Good luck.

 

[arborist]

There was a thread a little while back asking if Arboriculture is "Recession Proof"? It appears to be quite the opposite and may be the 'canary in the coal mine' for the economy. One of the first things to go is maintenance of landscaping, independent of storms or disturbances. My business has seemed to slow down a few weeks before the financial markets contract.

As for hacks and lowballers, Warren Buffett talks about impediments to entering a certain business dictating the relative profit margins of that business. It is in our best interest to make getting into the business as difficult as possible. For example mandatory licensing, insurance requirements, training and certification requirements, ect... I know this may be unpopular for some, but if we want to be treated like professionals, we have to do things professionally including creating impediments to entering the business.

EXACTLY!
and i cannot understand why every state doesn't mandate this already.
everyone wins!
the homeowner.why?because they can ONLY get licensed arborists who have studied safety first and how to properly care for trees.etc.etc.etc.
its kicks out the fly by under bidders who have no insurance nor other overhead in most cases.
the industry as a whole wins.
the good "tree workers" WILL become "arborists"
the fly by guys wont care to study and become knowledgeable in modern arboriculture.after all.they dont care about safety or trees.just that $ they can get from them unlike the good tree workers.

 

[Sunrise Guy]

(snip)Run your business right and you will not have to worry about the low ballers and hacks taking your business.

Sorry, but that's just not true in many markets around the US and, probably, the world. It sounds cool to say it, and draws many into saluting with a "Right on!" while they stand up and cheer, but it's really empty, feel-good fluff. In my area, there are fellows who will take down a lightning-struck, seventy-foot Sycamore, with a fifty foot, full-canopy spread, for $400 against my $1750 bid, as happened last week, and I was giving the fellow a good bid as I knew him from past experience. FWIW, the tree stood ten feet from the fellow's house. No, you can do everything right, and work your :censored: off to please your customers, but when times are tight, the low-ballers and hacks do take your business, and that's a fact, Jack!

 

[mckeetree]

I agree.

Now why would you want to go and agree with that? Facts are facts. And in certain areas the Mexicans are driving the prices in this business down. I see it all the time. Their is not much regulation in this business so they have little overhead and they come in with prices that won't even cover a legitimate business hard cost to do a job. The Mexican owner may be legal but their workers won't be. And to say do a good job and you won't have to worry about things like that is a big crock of crap. No matter how good you run your business you can't compete with a situation like that. I have payroll tax, sales tax, contractors liability,workers comp.,mandatory high limits of vehicle liability, applicators license fees, ISA dues, TCIA dues, business property tax, Texas workforce commission fees and income tax just to name some of it. And all they have is a yellow pages ad. But they are cheap and in a bad economy they look good.

 

[mckeetree]

Sorry, but that's just not true in many markets around the US and, probably, the world. It sounds cool to say it, and draws many into saluting with a "Right on!" while they stand up and cheer, but it's really empty, feel-good fluff. In my area, there are fellows who will take down a lightning-struck, seventy-foot Sycamore, with a fifty foot, full-canopy spread, for $400 against my $1750 bid, as happened last week, and I was giving the fellow a good bid as I knew him from past experience. FWIW, the tree stood ten feet from the fellow's house. No, you can do everything right, and work your :censored: off to please your customers, but when times are tight, the low-ballers and hacks do take your business, and that's a fact, Jack!

That's a fact, Jack.

 

[mckeetree]

Unless the company is doing something illegal, crying about being under cut in price on tree removals falls under the category of....tough ####, Jack.

This whole deal is going over your head you moron.

 

[arborist]

Unless the company is doing something illegal, crying about being under cut in price on tree removals falls under the category of....tough ####, Jack.

right.but that's just the point.
many are saying these fly by guys should be made to step up or get out of the way by mandating state arborist licenses & insurance.
so in other words,it should be illegal to just let someone with a saw promote themselves for compensation of tree work.
there are reputable isa certified arborists who are not lucky enough to live in a state where anyone can legally do the same work they can.
to many homeowners simply don't know the difference.they look at a yellow page ad and think well,he's just as good as the next guy.
sadly,many just don't understand the VAST difference.

see,without mandating a license where an individual clearly needs to study and learn.(not some simple little ok,go through the motions test for a fee either lol) you have "joe" who is called,who has no education but offers the same work as "jack" who is a licesed arborist.
joe bids a price of $10.00 and jack bids $15.00
a homeowner simply doesn't care or doesn't know.and takes the lower price.
this sucks,as "jack" can prove to the state he knows what he's doing to remain safe,not damage anything,and be insured in case,as well show he knows how to properly care for a tree,not just take $ and run.
now at the same time,"jack" is hurt yet again,if and when "joe" bids $15 on the same job as well.because "joe" is simply not proven as "jack" and hasn't done the requirements.he shouldn't make the same amount of money of course.
without state mandatory arborist licensing and proof of insurance,"jack" is SOL! who worked very hard and maintains all the proper tools,safety training,work comp etc,etc,etc, that "joe" is not required to have or checked upon at all to verify.
not to mention the complete butcher work we see in these states to trees who don't require arborists.

make it illegal in all states for a co with no license so that proven "arborists" can make a living,while maintaining constant training is what needs to happen.
until then,you are correct it: " falls under the category of....tough ####, Jack." lol

 

[newsawtooth]

Business

Tree Co, requiring licensing and insurance is bureaucracy and if you run your company right then you shouldn't have a problem with a little oversight.

If all that is required to enter this business is a saw and ladder then most legit companies will not be able to compete. The notion of customer service and quality work is idealistic and naive. It is a business that is driven by bids, lowest bid wins. Most customers will pass you over for a few bucks discount.

I return to impediments, speed bumps to entering the business. Why is it that pesticide application is so lucrative, relatively? I should preface this by stating that it is lucrative (relatively) in CO, WY, and UT. In comparison it has harder to get an applicator license. It requires so much experience, so much education, and stricter licensing guidelines. The net effect is a smaller number of people providing the service and subsequently much less disparity between bids. They are typically within a few cents per application for Mountain Pine Beetle for example.

Maybe more bureaucracy isn't the answer, but excluding more people from the business couldn't hurt.

 

[PurdueJoe]

Everyone wants quality work. Only 5% of clients will pay that extra for it. The other 95% they are going to take that lower bid. Simply as that. I bid a job for a guy that knew a client had done a job for a couple weeks before and they guy kept telling me how happy my client was and how great a job I did and how he wanted the same thing. Gave the price thinking this is in bag this guy knows I do good work. Never heard from him. Lowest bid wins.

 

[BRCCArborist]

Work is pretty good here, I average about 10-12 hour days. Almost too much! But too much work is better than not enough.

 

[highasatree]

keeping busy

Yes it has slowed down, Not getting near the amount of calls I've had in previous years. If it wasn't for my corporate clients, I'd have hardly no work.
Right now I've got around 2 good weeks of work ahead od us...Eugene

 

[mckeetree]

Twenty two years in the biz. I don't think the subject is over my head, punk!

I have been in business for 23 years but whether it's 10 or 22 or 23 years that doesn't keep anybody from being a moron. I knew a guy that retired in 1999 after 38 years in the business and everything went over his head. You couldn't tell him anything or make him understand anything. So years do not inoculate you from being a moron.

 

[tree MDS]

I like to think that tree work is one of the last jobs where a real man can make a good living doing something that he loves. Heck, its not everybody that can make more money than a lawyer per hour with no education to speak of! This speaks of the sort of man this trade requires.

I'm not for more bureaucracy by any means...on the other hand I dont want to see the trade ruined by low-ballers.

I just go about and try and let my work speak for itself. Its coming together slowly.

 

[Sunrise Guy]

Unless the company is doing something illegal, crying about being under cut in price on tree removals falls under the category of....tough ####, Jack.

Since it's against policy, on here, to get into personal attacks, I will not begin to do so. Just imagine all of the negative things that could be said about your kind, caring, compassionate reply, as above, and you'll have it without my stating it.

In a country where illegals have a "right" to compete, at an unfair advantage, with those of us who must pay all of the taxes and fees my colleague in Dallas previously listed, it is certainly NOT a matter of tough :censored:.

 

[l2edneck]

been real slow here to

 

[mckeetree]

I like to think that tree work is one of the last jobs where a real man can make a good living doing something that he loves. Heck, its not everybody that can make more money than a lawyer per hour with no education to speak of! This speaks of the sort of man this trade requires.

I'm not for more bureaucracy by any means...on the other hand I dont want to see the trade ruined by low-ballers.

I just go about and try and let my work speak for itself. Its coming together slowly.

More money than a lawyer per hour? I need to move to CT. I never wanted to see a lot of bureaucracy in this business but something needs to change the way things are going now.

 

[Sunrise Guy]

Twenty two years in the biz. I don't think the subject is over my head, punk!

How many years have you been out of the biz, though? If you are still active in it, which I doubt, how do you get the time to post more than four posts a day, everyday, for the past 7.5 years? I really want to know how that's possible. 4X365X7.5=10,950.

It's easy to be an "arm-chair arborist" when you haven't been in a tree for many years, or been out there seeing the hacks tearing it up for the same amount of time.