Shaver Improvement Forum

[November Wolf]

I wanted to post an update here,since I've been running the Ranco aquastat and blower mod over a week now.I highly recommend both of them together.My Shaver is like a different beast with these 2 mods.It holds temperature perfectly,I have the temp set at 179,and a 5 degree differential.I can go slightly lower,but my hot water recovery is affected at certain times.It does burn a little less wood at 175 on 170 off,thats the lowest it performs well at.I haven't had a minutes problems since the mods,and the nice thing is that with the blower running and the damper door fully open now,it easily burns the wood right down without falling behind with the last few logs.Also recovery is very fast now,where as before it could have taken hours to recover if all the zones were calling.
A big thank you to Fletcher and Dlav for them both taking the time to help by showing there mods,posting pics,and offering help.
This summer I am going to strip the OWB and get it spray foam insulated,top to bottom,and possibly build a better fully insulated door for it.I think those 2 changes will save me a lot of wood,and make the OWB perform better.I am burning a lot of seasoned Locust,and I gotta say this OWB burns cleaner than my neighbors indoor stoves if the wood is totally dry. The first pic is with blower on today,modded blower door ,2nd with it idling with modded damper closed. You can see my makeshift temporary wood shed i built for $40.I got what i think is about 3+ cord of wood in there.Its 24ft long,6 ft wide,and has 2 rows of 30-36" long logs about 5-6ft high.I'm not good at estimating wood volume,but its 3 cord minimum,could be over 4.

Nice Job! I bet you will see a big difference when you spray foam everything. I am guessing you have about 5 cord of wood with the dimentions you gave.
That is a nice shed for $40. I need to build me one this summer.

 

[John D]

I did a little more gathering today,I have been letting the OWB run real low on wood,lower than I was,it seems to use less wood,the less I put in,the less it eats.Heres the pics from today in another thread.
http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?p=1322640&posted=1#post1322640

 

[berry5]

i did the ranco mod that made a world of difference with my stove the thermostat on the stove was set a 150 calling for heat i did the mod droped the probe in the drywell was 173 it wasnt no wonder i was boiiling sometimes the creostote is almost gone i am going to move the controller to my bed room so i can control it from in side the house that is a sweet mod thanks

 

[fletcher0780]

I'm still waiting for ranco to respond with a recommendation for a remote temp monitor that can read the 0-10v output. I guess a simple way would be to use an analog volt gauge and create a new gauge face converting the volt reading to degrees, but I'd rather have LED, or even LCD with an alarm. It's been my experience with the Shaver that it is very important to keep the ashes from building up in the firebox or they do one of two things: Choke out the blower air from below the grate, or choke out the gases/smoke from exiting the chimney. Either of these will hinder your ability to gain water temperature. It seems that allowing the wood to burn to coals before reloading and raking the coals over the grate separating the ashes from the coals. I now have my ranco set to 175 off 170 on, which is needed during the sub 25* days. Over 25* I can do 155 of 150 on.

 

[ShaverFurnace]

Firebox temperature

Not making any promises......but am giving it thought as are others that I've asked.

I'm looking into ceramic fiber products...heat/fire resistant to 2300-2600*F
It can be purchased in sheet form or blanket form. Seems like the R value is around 3 per inch of thickness.

Any idea what temp the OWB fire would typically reach...I'm waiting on my infrared thermometer to arrive so I'm not sure what the range would be.

I have not seen any temperatures above 2000F in a firebox. Typical temperature is 7-800F and greater - but there are a lot of variables.

BTW, we don't insulate the door because that would require boxing it in. Boxing in an 18" square door would require 6 feet of metal around it. That is 6 feet of metal transferring heat to the outside plate - defeating the purpose.

If something can be used to stuff between the plates, that would be excellent.

 

[fletcher0780]

I have not seen any temperatures above 2000F in a firebox. Typical temperature is 7-800F and greater - but there are a lot of variables.

BTW, we don't insulate the door because that would require boxing it in. Boxing in an 18" square door would require 6 feet of metal around it. That is 6 feet of metal transferring heat to the outside plate - defeating the purpose.

If something can be used to stuff between the plates, that would be excellent.

I've had unfaced fiberglass stuffed between mine for a month and it is holding up well. Now I just need to insulate to bottom of the water jacket (which I was led to believe was already insulated) and add better insulation around the entire unit. The Ranco digital aquastat and solenoid controlled damper door are working well though.

Does anyone else think these images indicates insulation below the water jacket, or am I interpreting them incorrectly:

 

[November Wolf]

That definitely looks likes insulation all around the fire box. Misrepresentation of the product if you ask me.

 

[Dan-o]

Sure looks like it.

Hey Fletcher, I thought the same thing when I bought it that it was insulated, but that was one thing I had on my check list to ask before I bought it. Shaver said you are welcome to insulate it yourself, but if we insulated it, it would tear off when we move the unit and deliver it.

I laid r-17 foil insulation down when the boiler was delivered and cut off the excess when the unit was in place. That is all I have done so far.

Glad to hear your blower mod is working good. I will do mine in the spring, along with insulating it better. My Thermostat is working great so far. I need to insulate the 99 year old house better next year too. On those 0 degree days we had in December I had to put wood on every 4-5 hours to keep up with the drafty house. Still nicer than paying the propane man though.

 

[fletcher0780]

I guess I assumed they would do the same thing they did on the back panel to hold the insulation in and just attach some of that siding. I'm not looking forward to disconnecting everything to lift it up and insulate, but I think it will work much better. I'm also going to raise it by 10-12" so I don't have to bend over so much when loading it. I think keeping the center of the door at waist height is ideal.

 

[ngzcaz]

Well.. there's little doubt that they show insulation completely encompassing the boiler. Since there's about 1/2 to an inch from the bottom of the sheet metal to the concrete no one's going to see the lack of insulation unless they rip off some sheet metal. Even for Shaver, thats a surprise and not a welcome one.

Maybe a free roll of solarguard for all affected Shaver owners is in order along with an apology ?? I don't think they want to send people around to every owner and install insulation on the bottom of the boiler.. Then again, I certainly don't mind...

Where's Ben ??

:agree2:

 

[John D]

Fletcher,like you I too think the pictures clearly show a layer of insulation under the unit as well as up the sides and on top.I was losing a huge about heat from under my boiler,esp with mine raised up off the ground. I had to lay on th ground and insulate it thru the small opening in the front i had access thru.I havent insulated the door yet,but I will do it this week,hopefully.

Shaverfurnace,I'm not going to sugarcoat it,your product is highly lacking in insulation,and fit and finish.A sad dissapointment considering the fact that Shavers been around so long,and the amount of information on Shavers site,and various others,telling how well insulated the Shaver is.I feel misled by the advertisement,and information on the site,and sites of dealers.I am baffeld that they ship the OWB with nothing but air between the hot watertank,and the cold cement ground under it.As for the door, it's too small,and the air gap may help,but the door would run much cooler if it were insulated from day one,how much would it cost for an 18x18 1000 degree hi temp if you bought in quantity?Maybe $10 dollars? I'd rather they left off the circulator and POS light it comes with,and skip the 50ft 1/2 " copper coil laying in the back,mine was kinked anyway.Take that money and insulate it the way it should be.BTW trying to run the hot water demands of a 2 fam home thru 50ft of 1/2" copper is like breathing thru a straw after running a marathon.1/2" doesn't even meet building code here,its only good for 4 water taps.I have a 2 fam home w 3 showers,2 dishwashers,2 washers,7 sinks.It needs 3/4" to meet code,so I couldnt use it if i wanted too,I wish I'd known that it was only 1/2" would have deleted it.On the door size we got 2 340s,a 68" long firebox,and 8000sq ft capacity,and only an 18" door,trying to fill it evenly is a job in itself.
One last thing,your aquastat is a joke,it too doesnt meet UL specifications,and had to be ditched,it doesnt have a proper cover,(doesnt have any cover)and conduit sleeve.Its also nice to watch water sweat drip off the inside of the roof onto it and down the wires.

 

[ngzcaz]

John, John......................................tell them how you REALLY feel...


:agree2: oke:

 

[fletcher0780]

Well, I see Ben is reading this thread now, perhaps he'll respond.

 

[ShaverFurnace]

Insulation

Does anyone else think these images indicates insulation below the water jacket, or am I interpreting them incorrectly:

We agree and all the images were changed on the websites. However, nowhere does the text say it is insulated on the bottom.

These came from a dealer who had them drawn up and no one noticed the error.

We added information to the manual that says to lay a blanket of insulation down when the furnace is set is place, if desired.

We have not insulated the bottom in 36 years and there has never been a complaint (before now) or a problem with heat loss.

Best regards,

Ben

P.S. As I wrote elsewhere, do not use spray foam insulation.

Spray foam is not a good idea as it will hold moisture in and cause corrosion. Also most foam is flammable so any repairs necessary at any time in the future, would require removal of all the foam!

 

[pipe76]

Central Boiler uses spray foam and seems to work out fine, and i don't see a 14 page "Central boiler" Improvement forum on here either... tell you something?

Also Shaver completely mislead people by showing insulation on the bottom of the unit, never mind the false R value claims, I think Shaver should make this right to the customers that invested in their boilers.

 

[John D]

Central Boiler uses spray foam and seems to work out fine, and i don't see a 14 page "Central boiler" Improvement forum on here either... tell you something?

Exactly what I was thinking. In all honesty I dont have a problem with Shaver using fiberglass bats or solarguard,if it is installed correctly,and tightly to the waterjacket,it will work as designed.I know 5 ppl with Central boilers,all are very happy with there units,and all run them at 180 degrees easily.Try that with a Shaver,you will need to load a lot of wood,since most of your heat goes up the chimney and heating the outside via poor insulation.

Ben,if Shaver was really worried about trapping moisture,they wouldn't leave the chimney bare inside the roof,so it warms the underside of the roof,creating condesation,and filling the bottom of the roof with water droplets,which then drip on the insulation,and electrical components in the back.Insulation isnt supposed to get wet,again we are talking about a 5" round,and 1 foot long section of pipe,what can it cost to insulate it?$25.00?Even a few wraps of header wrap would work wonders.Like I said,let us get a circulator,and light,insulate the thing right from day one,so the insulation,circulator and blower dont get ruined.You wonder why the blowers are failing? THIS is why,they are getting wet,and it isn't from rain or snow,its from poor design/insulation.We have 3 Shavers up and running now,and they all do this,all 3 of them,mine has gotten better as the cresote layer builds up inside the pipe,its acting as an insulator.All my additional insulation I put in the back is ruined from sweating though.

 

[ShaverFurnace]

Shaver

Fletcher,like you I too think the pictures clearly show a layer of insulation under the unit as well as up the sides and on top.I was losing a huge about heat from under my boiler,esp with mine raised up off the ground. I had to lay on th ground and insulate it thru the small opening in the front i had access thru.I havent insulated the door yet,but I will do it this week,hopefully.

Shaverfurnace,I'm not going to sugarcoat it,your product is highly lacking in insulation,and fit and finish.A sad dissapointment considering the fact that Shavers been around so long,and the amount of information on Shavers site,and various others,telling how well insulated the Shaver is.I feel misled by the advertisement,and information on the site,and sites of dealers.I am baffeld that they ship the OWB with nothing but air between the hot watertank,and the cold cement ground under it.As for the door, it's too small,and the air gap may help,but the door would run much cooler if it were insulated from day one,how much would it cost for an 18x18 1000 degree hi temp if you bought in quantity?Maybe $10 dollars? I'd rather they left off the circulator and POS light it comes with,and skip the 50ft 1/2 " copper coil laying in the back,mine was kinked anyway.Take that money and insulate it the way it should be.BTW trying to run the hot water demands of a 2 fam home thru 50ft of 1/2" copper is like breathing thru a straw after running a marathon.1/2" doesn't even meet building code here,its only good for 4 water taps.I have a 2 fam home w 3 showers,2 dishwashers,2 washers,7 sinks.It needs 3/4" to meet code,so I couldnt use it if i wanted too,I wish I'd known that it was only 1/2" would have deleted it.On the door size we got 2 340s,a 68" long firebox,and 8000sq ft capacity,and only an 18" door,trying to fill it evenly is a job in itself.
One last thing,your aquastat is a joke,it too doesnt meet UL specifications,and had to be ditched,it doesnt have a proper cover,(doesnt have any cover)and conduit sleeve.Its also nice to watch water sweat drip off the inside of the roof onto it and down the wires.

You're right, fit and finish is sorely lacking but that doesn't make the furnace. That could be one reason is costs so much less than others. It's the guts; the thick metal and strength that counts. However, we are going to try to make improvements to the appearance.

The Shaver is well insulated, comparing it to the R values on other furnaces.
I don't understand the implication of deception because nowhere do we say that there is insulation on the bottom. The pictures were the only issue and they have been changed. The pictures haven't always been up there either...

We have never had a complaint about insulation before now. We can't ship them with insulation on the bottom because it always get ripped or torn off - we've tried. The new manuals say to lay down some fiberglass insulation before putting the furnace in place, if desired - but we have these in Alaska where is is regularly 30-35 below 0 F, with no complaints about heat loss and they heat the homes well!

Maybe we'll include extra insulation in the firebox so that customers can do this.

The door is not "too small". Can you really lift anything bigger than a 30" long,15" round log anyway? That things weighs 112 lb - let alone an 18" round or anything longer.

As posted here on this site, bigger doors are available for people that have to have them bigger. Remember, there is more heat loss with a bigger door because that is the only place that isn't surrounded by water.

Boxing in even an 18" x 18" door would requite 6 feet of metal which will transfer a LOT of heat to the outside of the door!

What is, "an 18x18 1000 degree hi temp"?

The copper tube is 5/8". Your water supply doesn't come through the coil. It is used to reheat and replenish the hot water in the H/W heater. You can EASILY pump 15 gallons a minute though it which way exceeds any hot water usage! Even tubs don't use more than 5 GPM and faucets are below 2. NEVER has anyone said that our hot water systems do not perform and they do work MUCH better and quicker that external heat exchangers.

People write to us all the time and talk about using a marathon of hot water, for literally hours on end (some have even stated use of four hours non-stop).

However most homes do not have 2 families!

For people heating more than one hot water heater or with 2 homes, a second coil is available.

The manual clearly shows a cover on the aquastat. Everything that we do that the customer can do, costs you money. All thermostats are UL listed.

Best regards,

Ben

P.S. Remember, I sell for the factory. I have an independent business. I am not Shaver Furnace but I care about what you think, so I pass on all of this information and push them to make improvements all the time. Maybe now that we are only a month away from being caught up on ALL order from last year and this year, we can start making some improvements suggested here.

 

[ShaverFurnace]

Insulation

...there's about 1/2 to an inch from the bottom of the sheet metal to the concrete no one's going to see the lack of insulation unless they rip off some sheet metal.
:agree2:

The bottom of the furnace is clearly seen when the furnaces are offloaded and set in place. No metal needs to be ripped off.

Again, only the pictures that were put up show the insulation on the bottom, if scrutinized. They have not always been on the website either.

Nowhere does the website text or brochures say that they are insulated on the bottom.

I feel that NOW people are looking at the pictures posted here and are saying OH YEAH they are supposed to have insulation.

I have never told anyone they were insulated on the bottom and when asked I told them NO, you can do that yourself.

Again, there is VERY little heat loss there PLUS that heat is trapped inside the metal building, helping keep the piping and rear warm.

 

[ngzcaz]

Well.. no one has been as hard on Shaver as me. To their credit this is the first time they came out with a flat " you're right, we were wrong " answer. Most of the issues were addressed, perhaps not to everyone's satisfaction but they were answered. ( while UL approved, thats a poor excuse for an aquastat, 20 to 30 degree swings in water temp is not acceptable ) ( ash BIN, not pan, :censored: ) ( quick removal/replacement of water coil ? :bang: ) etc etc

I said a long time ago we were buying Fords and Chevys and others were buying Caddys and Lincolns. All will get you from point A to point B. Whether the fit and finish went downhill from all the orders coming and the factory responding and hiring more workers and trying to get them out asap no one really knows. While some welds look like a 10 year old kid was trying to strike an arc, other welds that surround the firebox and water jacket have to be on the money or there is a leak. I have a bit of welding experience and tell you that from welding water tight vessels. I have no explanation why they can be so different ( other welders doing different jobs ? )

Quick fixes ?? wrap the pipe w/ solarguard and thats solved. Probably a buck or two of actual insualtion. Time, a couple of minutes. By the way, if any of you attempted to close the many air gaps between the sheet metal and the roof, you may have done more harm than good, at least until you wrap your pipe. The way they had it setup allowed the air to wisk away the condensation due to the air gaps. Probably an accident rather than by design. Maybe thats why mine had an airgap where the pipe went thru the roof :censored: sarcasm intended...

Put reg insulation as Fletcher did in the door..done..another buck or two and another couple of minutes.

There's a couple of low cost steam fixes/alterations/filler tubes thats worthwhile. All good ideas..

There's no question a good product that works and is lower priced wins... up to a point. Improve the product so that customers are more satisfied and they will pay more.. up to a point. What I'm saying is some of these are almost no cost items that could easily be done by the factory, and should be. Things like insulation and especially aquastats should not be customers fixes.

( and I dont even drink )

 

[Dan-o]

heat loss

There is a fair amount of heat loss on the bottom of the unit! Everytime it snows I have a 8-10" ring around the OWB of melted snow.