Shaver Improvement Forum

[ShaverFurnace]

Suggestions being implemented

Well Ben.. first off I do know where you are coming from, perhaps more than you know. I was a police officer for a quarter of a century and people ONLY called me if there was a domestic ( always a good time ) bar fight, assault, murder, rape, robbery, or better yet a death notification of a teen age kid. So I guess I have limited sympathy for someone behind a computer listening to legitimate complaints.

If some of these answers had been more forthcoming w/out pulling teeth, you wouldn't have as many frustrated customers. This is the first time I've heard that the routing of the water is probably responsible for the steaming/loss of water in the system. This answers a lot of questions why some people were having problems with water consumption. However, it shouldn't have been the responsibility of the customer to find the remedy.

You just don't seem to understand that most guys are setting their furnace
as their top priority, not looking underneath it, which by the way is not a good thing to do if it lets loose from the chain. Since you seem to think it was the customers responsibility to check out the insulation under the furnace, just how high up is this thing when its unloaded ? Even if the bottom was 5 ft high, you'd still have to bend over and look up at it. Thats why it wasn't mentioned for a whole year. Very few people saw it and if they did, they may not have known or realized what they were looking at. Just another dumb excuse IMHO.

The lack of understanding about door size is also interesting. For myself, I don't want to LOAD a 20 in diameter log, its just nice to have room when throwing them in the unit so you don't whack the sides and have it tumble back at you. A 10 or 12 in log doesn't have a lot of clearance on a standard door.

I think the light is at the end of the tunnel. Most problems have been taken care of by the ingenuity of the Shaver owners. Shaver seems to have taken care of warranty issues in a timely manner. The stove with all its shortcomings works well, and in all probability will work even better with the refinements that were contributed to this forum.

opcorn:

You had a MUCH harder job for sure, and the complaints are legitimate but none-the-less, it's still disheartening to take all the bashing because I do take it personally.

I spent an hour on the phone with Billy last night (with barely a voice) going over these issues AGAIN and it appears that we WILL be making changes such as using a Ranco thermometer and a dampered fan.

I did not mean to imply that everyone should be looking under the furnace and I'm sorry if it came across that way.

There have been VERY few complaints about the door size (in 36 years) AND a bigger door is available (with my insistence) but we are limited by the size of the pipe as to how big it can be made. If more people voiced their opinion about needing a bigger door, Billy might do it.

I appreciate ALL the comments and suggestions and many will be in production soon, I believe.

BTW, Billy said he DID NOT agree with what the rep at Wood Boiler Solutions was saying about moving the pump to the bottom. Nature's Comfort has there's where ours is and everyone says it works great, right?. That's why he hasn't send out a notice about it but I did make a suggestion to that effect in the manual.

Thank-you for your applause for some things right... and the suggestions.

Best regards,

Ben

P.S. Does the appearance of the furnace, i.e. caulking, etc., really bother anybody?

 

[John D]

I spent an hour on the phone with Billy last night (with barely a voice) going over these issues AGAIN and it appears that we WILL be making changes such as using a Ranco thermometer and a dampered fan.



There have been VERY few complaints about the door size (in 36 years) AND a bigger door is available (with my insistence) but we are limited by the size of the pipe as to how big it can be made. If more people voiced their opinion about needing a bigger door, Billy might do it.

I appreciate ALL the comments and suggestions and many will be in production soon, I believe.

BTW, Billy said he DID NOT agree with what the rep at Wood Boiler Solutions was saying about moving the pump to the bottom. Nature's Comfort has there's where ours is and everyone says it works great, right?. That's why he hasn't send out a notice about it but I did make a suggestion to that effect in the manual.

Thank-you for your applause for some things right... and the suggestions.

Best regards,

Ben

P.S. Does the appearance of the furnace, i.e. caulking, etc., really bother anybody?

Thank you for the reply, I am running my pump from the top port to circ to the house,bottom return.That is how it should be,no ifs ands or butts,its the way water flows,why try to fight it,hot at the top,why take cold water from the bottom,and bring colder water back to the top?You will need to run the OWB hotter to have the same water temps inside. From what ive read here the ppl having problems either arent sitting level on the pad,or are shutting the circ off when the heating zones kick off.If Shaver would put a recommendation to let the circ run full time,if they have a problem,if that solves it,then leave it on full time.Probably better anyway,helps circulate water evenly around the firebox,eliminating hot spots,inaccurate aquastat temp readings,and steaming.For the 2-5 dollars a month in electric its well worth it,also gives you immediate heat inside,and will extend the inside boilers life by keeping water temps stable inside and out,not shocking it with a wave of hot water after its cooled off.
The appearance isnt a deal breaker for me,but its usually a good reflection of the overall quaility of the product. The real problems have been discussed here,if this OWB was a set it and forget OWB,like a CB is,I don't think many would be complaining about the looks much.Business end details are very important,like quality installed insulation,and design/engineering a finished product that works well out of the box,as delivered.Esp important with the blower/aquastat. This is why I suggested skipping the light,and circ,and adding a Ranco ,bottom,and door insulation,a chinmey wrap, and solenoid to the blower.The costs should be similar,but I feel the circ,and light are much easier for the end user to address,and finish than the other problems.

 

[Windwalker7]

I thought I might chime in here.


First off, thank you Ben for at least responding to the many posts in this thread. I'm sure you feel out numbered and it must get very frustrating.

I like my furnace. I actually like it a lot. Sure, there are several things about it the need improved and several good ideas have surfaced on this thread. Some things should have been done at the factory and not let up to the customer. ( that's the way other brand furnaces are delivered)

I do understand the need to cut a few corners to keep the price. Whether most on here would admit it or not, the main reason we considered the Shaver was the cost. Compare the price to any other.

The thicker firebox was another big plus.


Yes, the furnace does have that home made look about it. With the caulk sticking out everywhere, doesn't help things in the looks department. It isn't as fancy as other brands and I knew that before I bought mine. Like I sais before, what hooked me, was the thicker firebox and the price.


My biggest complaint was the way customers were dragged alond for weeks and weeks waiting for furnaces. Delivery dates were given and the canceled many times. this didn't happen to one or two customers, it happened to just about everyone.

I feel that many of those customers were even lied to. Yes, lied to! There were people that ordered furnaces in jJune and had not received them even by November, yet your Website was telling potential customers that if they ordered in early November, they'd get there furnace by the end of December.

This is a crock! People already waiting for 5 months while others are being promised delevery in 2 months.


This my friend, is probably why so many were angered with the Shaver Co.


All in all, I do like my furnace and would almost recommend one to someone else. Why almost? Because I'm not sure the furnace would be delivered when promised. When they aren't delivered, this leaves a sour taste in their mouth. This causes customers to be more critical of the company.

I'm glad to hear that Shaver is considering the improvments suggested. These will make a good furnace great!

 

[hypothesis]

:agree2:

 

[hypothesis]

:agree2:

 

[Redbird]

My 2 sense

I'm new here and have been reading this for the last couple weeks. I purchased my 165 in Sept. (from a dealer, it was the quickest delivery and didn't cost anymore than the factory). I Finally got the first house on line 12/6, yes first, I then added the second house a week later. Distance to each about 175 ft. My rental, built 1930ish, about 1000 sq ft of partially insulated, setting on the ground, some places less than 10" between joist and ground, house. Then mine, built 1995, 1500sq ft. The stove keeps both comfortable (68-70 F). OWB set 180. It is generally loaded full about 5 am and a quarter load about 3-4pm and then reloaded about 9-10pm. Last night with temps about 0, colder than normal here in Va. we added some coal into the mix and water was 170 at 5:30 this morn. Wasn't I suprised,it's usually in the 140-150. I do agree with most that there is room for improvement. And it does make a difference. Some type of controller to more accurately control the temp, You could say I'm a Hi tech redneck. (mine is digital, reading a thermocouple, and 3 relay outputs to control the fan (which is wired in series with the original temp controller (water heater stat), and the solenoid controlled damper, which was a great idea, can't remember who I copied on that, but thanks. Closed it smolders away, and reheat time is much shorter with the full air flow of the fan. And if I wanted to a warning light to let me know if I am under temp (need wood) or overtemp (something wrong). I keep both pumps running 24/7 and have no problems with temp overshoot, I may heave some heat loss but nothing will freeze and everything stays up to temp. After reading this thread I decided like many that I wanted better control of my fire. That is not to say the stove didn't work as shipped, it's that it could be made better for a few hundred more. I based my purchase on the structure of the stove and definitely the price, so adding a couple hours of my time and a couple hundred bucks for gadgets is a heckuva lot better than paying 1500$ for something that heats water the way mine does. If I had it to do over I would have gotten a larger size for the larger water capacity, but I might still be waiting on it. I plan on making a few insulation improvements come warm weather, but other than that I think I got exactly what I paid for. A Big water heater that is cheap to heat, as opposed to 1500-2000$ worth of propane last year. I figure in 3 yrs or sooner depends on the economy, it will be paid for and the savings can go in the bank for the kids. IMO if you don't own a Shaver then you don't need to be on here bashing them It is an IMPROVEMENT forum. If you don't own one then it's not your problem.

 

[LTREES]

The thicker firebox was another big plus.

My biggest complaint was the way customers were dragged alond for weeks and weeks waiting for furnaces. Delivery dates were given and the canceled many times. this didn't happen to one or two customers, it happened to just about everyone.

I feel that many of those customers were even lied to. Yes, lied to! There were people that ordered furnaces in jJune and had not received them even by November, yet your Website was telling potential customers that if they ordered in early November, they'd get there furnace by the end of December.

This is a crock! People already waiting for 5 months while others are being promised delevery in 2 months.

This my friend, is probably why so many were angered with the Shaver Co.

When they aren't delivered, this leaves a sour taste in their mouth. This causes customers to be more critical of the company.

I'm glad to hear that Shaver is considering the improvments suggested. These will make a good furnace great![/QUOTE]



I'm not sorry I decided on the CB 5036, I don't have the time to be tinkering with an OWB. That would have frustrated me even more than the 5 months I waited on the unit. Not saying the unit is a bad one, just felt like I was knocked down and then kicked.

LT...


PS. I have a 40 plate heat exchanger for sale new, PM me if any one wants it.

 

[Redbird]

I agree the way it sounds like they have been doing people is no way to run a business. I think part of the problem is that everyone including myself have jumped on the self sufficient plan (no oil, or propane or at least as little as possible. Last summers gas prices and the lack of control of propane prices have people thinking about ways to make the money go farther. I myself decided to say the heck with the propane company last winter. I was with the same business for about 18 years and then they sold out to someone from out of state. My bill more than doubled in less than a year. Since Shaver obviously sells a well built quality product (which could be better for a small cost) for much less than the competition, I think that they have just been overwhelmed with orders, (I may be wrong), and that they just can't keep up. I purchased from a dealer because I was told by the dealer or the factory, can't remember who, that they fill the dealers orders before individual customers and I didn't care about the color anyway. I cared about function. They (Shaver) need to realize if they can't back-up what they advertise/promise then don't. The best thing to do is be honest with the customer. I myself might not like it but at least I would respect their honesty. I hope they get their wood in a pile before they burn it up. Someone who's been in business for as long as they have should should know better.

 

[310 german]

I decided to chime in on this forum for a couple reasons. 1) I would like to say a few words to (poor) Ben at shaver furnace, and 2) I wish to stay in the loop with those of you who have been working the bugs out of these furnaces and add a suggestion of my own.

Ben- I definitely think you are getting a raw deal here. Both from Weld-rite and from those who condemn you(instead of weld rite). I think it would be wise to re-evaluate your position, because from where I sit it would appear that you are taking all the $h!t, and you don't even make the product. I don't know exactly how you communicate the reported shortcomings to Billy at Weld-rite, but he needs to see and hear this stuff for himself for it to stick. If I'm guessing right, you were hired to take orders and handle production scheduling, neither of which includes the customer complaint department. My point is- I feel for ya, but only you can fix your predicament.

As for my furnace, I am very happy to have found this forum. I'll be doing the Ranco aquastat upgrade, the blower mod, insulating the chimney and then the whole furnace better (especially under), and very likely raising it to a better hieght. I have a suggestion for another upgrade that I will be trying out this summer. I have already posted it on another forum I found elsewhere, so I'm just going to paste the whole thing in below. I'd like to hear some comments back as to what you all think.Here is my contribution to the other thread:

I ordered a 340 model (the BIG one) from Shaver last April. I did extensive research on at least 25 different manufacturers. After looking at all the info available on the web at that time (and now), I felt the heavy-duty construction and simplicity of the unit was what I was looking for. At the time of ordering, I explained to them that I did not need or want the furnace delivered until early fall. I set up a tentative delivery date of Oct. 1st. As that date approached, I called them to push the date back as I hadn't gotten the pad poured yet. I took delivery on Oct. 8th. That was earlier than I was supposed to get it and I still did not have the pad done. I paid to have it delivered and placed on the pad. They brought it early, so it could not be set in place. At my request and WITH NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER they sent me an extra circulating pump instead of refunding me the difference. The furnace operates just fine. I heat my 2750 sq. foot home and attached 3 car garage, the hot water for my home, and my grandmother's poorly insulated old farm house. The only thing I would change about the furnace is to customize it a bit. I will be making my own shaker grate for it for next year. I also want to build angled sides for the inside of the firebox that can also hold refractory brick. This will serve two purposes: 1. holding in more heat, thereby burning up the "charcoal" nuggets better.

and 2. giving a "hopper" effect so that as the fuel burns, gravity will direct it not only downward, but into the center which is where the air supply comes from and the ashes fall down through.

This will, I think, remedy the problem so prevalent on almost all OWB stoves where ashes build up on either side of the fire grates (on stoves that have them). That particular problem not only creates large piles of not-fully-combusted charcoal, but it also holds in moisture if it gets deep enough. This will ultimately cause the firebox to corrode away.

All in all, I am satisfied with the Shaver furnace. I have had good luck with it so far and I think that once I make my customizations, it will go from "good" to "great".

I can't really say anything too bad about thier public relations based on my experience, but I would say that they need to work on that based on all the comments above. Speaking as a business owner, the best advertising is customer referrals. You won't get that unless you give people at least what they expect from you (which is what you promised them) or better. And timing is everything. No one likes to feel as though they are being "blown off". Excuses are BAD and should always be apologetic, assertive(as to the remedy) and financially rewarding(even if only slightly) to the customer.

-Warm in PA​

Let me know what you think about the refractory brick mod. BTW, has anyone come up with a good product to wrap the chimney with?

Regards,
Ron

 

[yodayoda]

BTW, has anyone come up with a good product to wrap the chimney with?
I was thinking about the same thing lately, how about buying a section of good insulated chimney like metalbestos, just slightly larger inside diameter than the shaver outside diameter chimney and slipping it down over the existing chimney? can anyone think of any problem this may cause?

 

[fletcher0780]

BTW, has anyone come up with a good product to wrap the chimney with?
I was thinking about the same thing lately, how about buying a section of good insulated chimney like metalbestos, just slightly larger inside diameter than the shaver outside diameter chimney and slipping it down over the existing chimney? can anyone think of any problem this may cause?

I believe ngzcaz used solarguard and wrapped it a few times. I think you may run into a problem if you slide insulated pipe over the existing chimney. the pipe will still sweat, but now it will be concentrated to the area just around the chimney on top of the water jacket (unless it is a really tight fit). You could probably aslo wrap it with unfaced fiberglass and use hi-temp tape or hose clamps to secure it.

 

[yodayoda]

I believe ngzcaz used solarguard and wrapped it a few times. I think you may run into a problem if you slide insulated pipe over the existing chimney. the pipe will still sweat, but now it will be concentrated to the area just around the chimney on top of the water jacket (unless it is a really tight fit). You could probably aslo wrap it with unfaced fiberglass and use hi-temp tape or hose clamps to secure it.

Are people having trouble with the chimney actually sweating or the underside of the roof? It seems my chimney runs way to hot to sweat, any moisture I think would boil off?

 

[John D]

Are people having trouble with the chimney actually sweating or the underside of the roof? It seems my chimney runs way to hot to sweat, any moisture I think would boil off?

The heat from the chimney rises up under the roof,which is uninsulated,the temp on top is as cold as outdoors,temp under the roof is 50-60 degrees,maybe more depending on how much the OWB is firing the blower.This creates moisture forming under the roof,which drips onto the insulation,and ruins it.It also runs to the rear of mine,and drips down freezing the door shut,and drips on the blower,I'm sure that isnt any good for it.As mine builds up a layer of cresote,it is less of an issue,but it still does it.This is the only reason to insulate the chimney,to keep the heat out from under the roof.

 

[yodayoda]

The heat from the chimney rises up under the roof,which is uninsulated,the temp on top is as cold as outdoors,temp under the roof is 50-60 degrees,maybe more depending on how much the OWB is firing the blower.This creates moisture forming under the roof,which drips onto the insulation,and ruins it.It also runs to the rear of mine,and drips down freezing the door shut,and drips on the blower,I'm sure that isnt any good for it.As mine builds up a layer of cresote,it is less of an issue,but it still does it.This is the only reason to insulate the chimney,to keep the heat out from under the roof.

So what do think of my idea to slide insulated stove pipe over the existing pipe? or will this just cause more problems as fletcher suggested

 

[ShaverFurnace]

chimney wrap

BTW, has anyone come up with a good product to wrap the chimney with?
I was thinking about the same thing lately, how about buying a section of good insulated chimney like metalbestos, just slightly larger inside diameter than the shaver outside diameter chimney and slipping it down over the existing chimney? can anyone think of any problem this may cause?

I believe header wrap would be the best.

Best regards,

Ben

 

[fletcher0780]

I believe header wrap would be the best.

Best regards,

Ben

That's a good idea! I might just have to try that.

 

[urhstry]

Now one thing I know about header wrap is that it holds mositure and will eventually rust out header pipes. Some guys disagree because they have their pipes wrapped on a show car that they show only so many times a year so they never get the same amount of moisture that a daily driver would get... in our case, our OWB's.

 

[fletcher0780]

Now one thing I know about header wrap is that it holds mositure and will eventually rust out header pipes. Some guys disagree because they have their pipes wrapped on a show car that they show only so many times a year so they never get the same amount of moisture that a daily driver would get... in our case, our OWB's.

get it ceramic coated

 

[trshmn]

BTW, has anyone come up with a good product to wrap the chimney with?
I was thinking about the same thing lately, how about buying a section of good insulated chimney like metalbestos, just slightly larger inside diameter than the shaver outside diameter chimney and slipping it down over the existing chimney? can anyone think of any problem this may cause?

Great idea, I was thinking same thing, using six inch triple wall, cut the roof out to fit it then reseal around top of roof with silicone, and easy to add extra pipe if needed, but you will have 1/2" gap between the two pipes, maybe stuff with rope gasket so creosote does'nt run down in , should keep all heat out of the roof area and control condensation

 

[310 german]

Has anyone considered wrapping the chimney below the roof and going to triple wall above? That way, if there was any condensation in between the walls, it would simply drip out the bottom and run down the roof. I am building a shelter / woodshed that will cover the furnace and a year's worth of wood, so I was going to use the tri wall to go up through the roof.

Also, any thoughts on my idea for adding refractory brick that are built into angled sides?

The only thing I would change about the furnace is to customize it a bit. I will be making my own shaker grate for it for next year. I also want to build angled sides for the inside of the firebox that can also hold refractory brick. This will serve two purposes: 1. holding in more heat, thereby burning up the "charcoal" nuggets better.

and 2. giving a "hopper" effect so that as the fuel burns, gravity will direct it not only downward, but into the center which is where the air supply comes from and the ashes fall down through.

This will, I think, remedy the problem so prevalent on almost all OWB stoves where ashes build up on either side of the fire grates (on stoves that have them). That particular problem not only creates large piles of not-fully-combusted charcoal, but it also holds in moisture if it gets deep enough. This will ultimately cause the firebox to corrode away.