The thread was legitimate

[TheTreeSpyder]

i think that this sight has not to be only sensibly maintained to person-all freedoms of speach; but also ability to maintain a following; also a loyalty to the sponsors, of a level of proffessionalism that they could find 'sponsorable'.

All these things must be met and harmonized post by post; this can be a rather a difficult task sometimes i would imagine! If one is able and willing to step forward and sensibly do that, i belief wee should give some latitude, or take some time to chip in ourselves in such a serious manner. All of us have seen enough of life to know that no person or group can satisfy everyone in such a task.

It seems that some here, think that such censorship chases folx away; i think that i remember a time here, that the reverse was true with the trash that flowed un-abated. i know personally that it stunted my own growth and reaching here, as well as others that i miss.

i agree with Joe (oooooooooops!) about this should be a season that wee have more time to share and explore our experiences and models of understandings we have assembled. My biggest b______ with ISA was crashing, and logging on problems; all along wondering why Sherrill didn't create a board (for they both are highly recognized, concerned entities on their own) and lo and behold...... Besides, now i don't knead to ponder what it meant when someone said that their internet site went done on them!!......... i also think that Joe has another good point, about new members not being too intimidated to ask and respond; sometimes i think that we here have some work to do in that department.

i have heard of guys peeing outta da'tree around this area, so this topic wasn't totally in left field for me, though then as now; i might be only able to rationalize that in a huge Redwood or the like, where even coming down to eat is pro-hibitive. i've followed a few of Wolfie's posts, must admit that i'm not a fan; but i have followed DTE's too, so, for me; words from that monicker compels me to keep an open mind towards Wolfie!

i do not refute this open searching, and passionate input on these topics that may affect the direction and impact of this site; actually it is nice to see so many concerned.

But i do beleive that it is time to move on, to exert and present that energy into deeper understandings into the powers that flow so rawly around us in the field all the time.

Perhaps if i jest said something like "Joe, i think that there are times in a rig, before hinge tearoff, that the machine action of the load is a 1st class lever.........." (That outta do it!!)

Ummm, that would be a topic of it's own, exitting from here......

And if that don't, hear ye, i have found a page of the type of math that i taught myself in 5th grade, that i thought a few might find interesting; not just in it's methodology, but in it's unique open minded approach to familiar problems through a diffrent path; that has helped forge that same open mindness to approach rigging, of looking at all angles.


p.s. oops forgot the aforementioned link :{http://hucellbiol.mdc-berlin.de/~mp01mg/oldweb/1mutrach.htm}

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

Just adding fuel to the fire by merging the two threads. Discression yahnoe.

Call it what you will, but the owner of this site has said that this is a place for professionals to discourse proffesionaly. Many people opined to meand tha board that this was not a proper topic and had served it's life. Most along the lines of Nates post above. Not just one or two.

I base my discreasionary actions not on my gut feelings, but on the guidlines Darin has set down (I do loosely follow them, but then we would not have much to read if I didn't) and past events that have set off flames and grudges.

I will not erase something because one or two people object, but if where I feel enough people give a cogent argument for doing so.

Jus as a few of you say this is mot my forum and should not mess with it, this is not any small groups forum and we all should think a little while posting.

Part of my objection to the current thread in question is that many of the responces were more attacks on him then answers to his question.

My own take on the last few weeks is that some people went to visit family. I know Ox is up in the mountains skiing with his kids and Tom D. went to see his brother and family in TX.

Me, I got a cold, so I spent the holidays with y'all.

 

[Treeman14]

Originally posted by Frans
My wife ownes horses. Has for many years.
I cannot remember even once where she put down a horse becouse of a loose shoe.
____________________________________________________
Re: This wasn't a loose shoe, more like two broken legs. I applaud JPS for putting it out of its misery rather than enduring a slow painful death.
____________________________________________________


My point is dont throw the whole thread away. go into it and delete the acutual words you (the censor) feel is not appropriate. In the place of these words (or paragraphs) insert "deleted".
Of course this would take alot of time and would make the censor job a hassle but hey if you dont like the job then put it out to bid by voting maybe?
____________________________________________________
Re: The problem was not just a few inappropriate words, the whole thread was inappropriate. I believe it was begun simply to incite the type of response it elicited and was typical of Wolfie's past threads. Good riddance to bad rubbish.
____________________________________________________

I belive in the system. I also belive that everyone could have a say. Dont get me wrong half of what I hear these days I dont want to hear BUT, it is our system (the U.S.A.'s) and we should work with it.
____________________________________________________
Re: This forum is not a democracy.
____________________________________________________

If this board turns into a slave to the sponsers I for one will seek other boards elsewhere.
____________________________________________________
Re: Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
____________________________________________________

The stated purpose of the boaard is for pro. to talk in a pro. way about arboriculture and the tools and stuff. The purpose of the "sponsers" is to sell, sell, sell and make money. How are the two connected? I'm confused.
____________________________________________________
Re: Ummmm. The sponsors pay for the site? Without them, we wouldn't be here.
____________________________________________________

***** they are not out there scratching out a living working with trees and shrubs.
Maybe we should pay to be able to visit this site!
Just make out a check to: 'insert name here of biggest sponser'
thanks
____________________________________________________
Re: OK. Put your money where your mouth is. Start your own site.

 

[TREETX]

I think a lot of people just want to be heard even if they are talking trash and not COMMMERCIAL Tree Care and Climbing.

This is not a place where you have the right to be heard. Freedom of speech and the right to be heard as you wish are different things.

In the words of Mr. Burns (Simpsons) - "If I want to hear mindless droning, I will befriend an air conditioner"

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Originally posted by Frans
The purpose of the "sponsers" is to sell, sell, sell and make money. How are the two connected? I'm confused.
***** they are not out there scratching out a living working with trees and shrubs.

Ummmmmmm, i for one have not seen that attitude from the sponsors; in fact if that was the only thing; i dare to suggest; that there wouldn't be any cartoons of info, or even this site!!

Dare i suggest; that some of ye would demand more reverance to someone that entered your realm/ home than you give here?

Personally i feel i have a lot to thank this site for, brought to us by these sponsors; let alone long before this site to previously, that i have had many reasons to thank the Sherrill clan for. As i watch the world racing around me i see all to few that do as much for the public and customers; through their comprehensive assemblies of tools, techniques and passion to help. i have talked to several Sherrill employees over the years, and have always recieved the reflection of Tobe himself being hard working and fair, setting the tone for all else, so find totally groundless any imagery cast of a fat cat draining us poor sweathogs dry, as leverage to self justify such a raunchy attitude.

So i find it only appropriate, that if some wish to ****, that they at least do have the grace to not do it in the sponsor's own house, and offer to do it from elsewhere. That is only fair, and of course appreciated!

 

[John Paul Sanborn]

There are realy only two sponsors to this site, Darin Johnson and Sherrill.

Now Tobe did not know he was sponsoring this site for quite a while, so realy it is Sean Larkins internet division of the company that is sponsoring the site.

So i will not agree with that type of language about two members of this community.

Maybe i will delete this thread too if this direction continues.

Fans, I am disapointed thought you were more mature then that. Or is that the barley talkin?

 

[Menchhofer]

I believe it was correct to delete the post as it was very unprofessional along with the profanity used on this site (even though some of the letters are missing).

To me, these types of threads are totally unnecessary and also disrespectful. The words we use show others how some of us seem to express ourselves and it does not look very good to the professional world.

If this were a bank employee board, a microsoft company board, or any other type of profession organization, I am confident some of the posts and words we have been using would be unacceptable.

I am sure we can find other more important issues.

 

[Wulkowicz]

Originally posted by Toddppm

The Format at the ISA board sucks IMO because , it's a pain to participate(password protected), to read the threads is a pain, have to go through a couple diff. pages, then pick which forum, then which page, then which thread, then which page of the thread etc...</b>

They have WebBoard 4.2 from O'Reilly and it's a perfect example of bloatware. I'm probably registered there 15 times and if I ever ask for my password, they sent a new number that doesn't work.

I've been pretty demading and noisy about their Board selections and operation, but in their defense, O'Reilly never really stepped up to help them except maybe to sell them a later version (Which as you point out, sucks.).

Doug's site still uses WebBoard 1.0 and is simple to use, which says a great deal about ending up with too many bells and whistles.

<hr>

<b>I never had a problem with the cencorship there and I doubt many others did either. I had a lot of problems with their system not remembering my info and then not letting me back in because I couldn't remember it and it wouldn't give it me!

How about your forum Bob? Totally uncensored but still stagnant? Why's that? </b>


Stagnant is as stagnant does. I have no magic or magnetic attraction for writers. People write where they chose for their own reasons. There is admittedly a revolving door quality in a lot of this and apparent site fright can't be easily pinned on one issue.

I have never censored anything at that forum, but I did put one guy in the Zoo because punching a link on his post locked up the reader's machine and forced a restart. Since many people can lose things with that unannounced practical joke, I sent the post to the Zoo froum where people were informed what would happen ahead of time. I changed nothing, altered nothing and censored nothing.

When I was a kid I read a book where the author pointed out that "The map is not the territory." These are only words, a collection of letters, that you can read--then discard or ignore.

I feel a distinct obligation to my authors and readers to respect their perspectives--and even their adolescences--and simply leave their writings intact.

<hr>


<b>I think this site keeps going because of the ease of use and a lot of different views and on-topic and useful discussions.

How did the peeing out of a tree thread have anything to do with everyday tree activities?</b>


Wasn't the guy peeing out of the tree everyday? That sort of qualifies it as a tree topic, doesn't it?



<b>Consider the source-I think the last thread he started was pulled because he logged in under a different name starting a thread pretending to be totally clueless, just starting crap, should have kept that one too?

He's just getting his jollies and attention and it's working. I was suprised and glad to see people actually took this thread serious and tried to help but I would bet the guy was BS ing just to get attention?


Hey, I don't know. I took it semi-seriously or semi-humorously depending on which way you view the glass. It doesn't matter. I can't go back and see it; and that choice was taken away from me--without asking.

Is it a earth-shattering loss? I doubt it, but when will that moment arrive for me? When I say something like flush cuts are OK at times; or when I say something that one of the sponsors doesn't like, because it prompted an e-mail from an advertiser complaing about my post knocking a product?

Does anyone want my narratives on why Claus Mattheck's theory of <i>The Axiom of Universal Stress</i> doesn't, and can't possibly, fit trees? We were so starved for information about trees that we grabbed at some fancy computer renderings about stresses in monolithic cylinders that looked like trunks and branches, and then we accepted a proposal about that's how trees grew.

I've had a wealth of heresies that are unusual and uncomfortable for a lot of people. I do understand that they might not like them, but, like Alex, I have no choice to write about them and lecture where I can.


So, pee or poop; my offerings of techniques for droughts or subsidence; or my proposal for CODIT pruning--

The outcome will generally be the same:
<i>
What's written isn't liked or agreed with.

This site reserves the right...

No one has complained about my censoring it, says the censor.

Bingo, whatever it was, it's gone.</i>


<hr>


In another post:

<i>This is not a place (here) where you have the right to be heard. Freedom of speech and the right to be heard as you wish are different things.</i>


Really, when did that happen? Was I somehow looking the other way?

My defense of <u>your</u> right to be heard is critical to our existance in a democracy. I don't step back away from it; I pursue it noisily, albeit clumsily sometimes. And there are a lot of people who feel and act the same way.

If a bunch of us fools weren't around puffing to keep speech from being weaselled away, you'd eventually have no clue as to what free speech ever was.

And who would you complain to?

The censor?



Bob Wulkowicz

 

[Frans]

"There are realy only two sponsors to this site, Darin Johnson and Sherrill.

Now Tobe did not know he was sponsoring this site for quite a while, so realy it is Sean Larkins internet division of the company that is sponsoring the site.

So i will not agree with that type of language about two members of this community"
JPS
I'm sorry did I say something wrong about the sponsors?
I reread my post and all I saw was my ranting about equipment salespeople making money. So what is the big deal? They do their thing and I do mine. Oh and by the way I have always said good things about Sherrills, I back them up 100% always have. bought lots of stuff from them and will buy again. I think my past will show where I stand on them.
RE: this topic. I didnt read any of the prior posts just throwing my two cents in . This is the internet is it not?
CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?

 

[treeclimber165]

Absolutely amazing how something so insignificant has gotten blown all out of porportion simply because JPS went nuts with his magic eraser again. If he had simply left it alone, it would be dead by now and we might actually be discussing something worthwhile.

I propose that JPS's right to delete be revoked. Let him edit away, that way if he erases posts there will still be a blank post showing that it was erased. I think that the way he can make stuff just 'disappear' is disconcerting, considering how many posts he's erased (or moved, or 'merged', or modified) so far.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Dang fellas, perhaps someone that can keep everyone and every faction estaticly happy would like to step up, and take the load from JP for a while!

Speaking for myself, i don't think i could muster the time or patience. Then the deal about posting his number and opening himself up to everyone on that level too, must be some kinda crazy self-torture.

When tough choices have to be made, you might not always agree with those that must make them, but some respect should be given, especially as it is earned.

i'm not real high on the censorship thing myself, but respect-full of others efforts in doing their best. Fact is i remember a youngster that the 'buzzard' got, and many cried for his censorship for sometimes definitely less tresspasses. i have always person-ally thought that those times tempered these, hard choices had to be made there too. Some said too late, some say too soon on these now; there ain't no way to keep everyone happy; all you can do is your best!

JP and Sherrill have satisfied me there.

 

[Wulkowicz]

Originally posted by treeclimber165
Absolutely amazing how something so insignificant has gotten blown all out of porportion simply because JPS went nuts with his magic eraser again. If he had simply left it alone, it would be dead by now and we might actually be discussing something worthwhile.

The initial topic dies its own death. That's is what generally happens as the great correction factor; apathy.

What still steams ahead here is the abuse of changing or deleting someone's writings without even bothering to ask.

Seems to me, if you're always wanting to turn off the stove, stay out of the kitchen.


Bob Wulkowicz

 

[rborist1]

:Eye:

 

[Wulkowicz]

Originally posted by TheTreeSpyder
Dang fellas, perhaps someone that can keep everyone and every faction estaticly happy would like to step up, and take the load from JP for a while!</b>


Is that the function of a forum? To keep everyone happy? A circus, maybe. The crowd waiting for their pills at the half-way house? Perhaps. I thought the function was to exchange ideas and experiences.
<b>

Speaking for myself, i don't think i could muster the time or patience. Then the deal about posting his number and opening himself up to everyone on that level too, must be some kinda crazy self-torture.</b>

Don't want the tedium and drugery of being a censor? Don't want the ordeal of reading a thousand misspellings and strangely tormented grammar? Don't want people yelling at you because they don't understand your authority with a capital A?

<u>Don't touch anything.</u>

<hr><b>


When tough choices have to be made, you might not always agree with those that must make them, but some respect should be given, especially as it is earned.</b>

I am not criticizing your perspectives and I understand you're trying to calm the waters, but I don'r see what have been any tough choices here.

Apparently, this has gone on before, and others, more knowledgeable than me still have some feelings.

Those bad feelings will always come up because the practice is wrong. The choices are more often petty than anything else. I watched a gaggle of doofi take out after a few woman arborists back in the early days of the ISA forums. The guys were racist, sexist and vile; the women were surprised and hurt, but they came back an made fools of the tiny brains that started it. The women won because they were smarted and funnier. The lesson was learned and the thread petered out (no pun intended).

The ISA, ever concerned about its image, you know, the perception of themselves by the public (?), pulled some posts which dumped everthing else in line, and suddenly big globs of November disappeared. Oops, gee, we didn't mean for that to happen.

Didn't matter. Can't unring the bell.

<hr>

<b>
i'm not real high on the censorship thing myself, but respect-full of others efforts in doing their best. </b>


Certainly, I should try to do my best and I should be respectful of others doing the same, but, as a point of exxageration, should I extend my respect to serial killers and others working the best they can at their craft? Should that be mitigation at a trial?

There are lines, to be sure, where social expectations get soft and crumbly, I can sometimes tell the difference. But this issue here is not a line of any consequence except for the principle of allowing others their right to speak.

If it's good enough for the Constitution, it's good enough for me.

<hr>

<b>
Fact is i remember a youngster that the 'buzzard' got, and many cried for his censorship for sometimes definitely less tresspasses. i have always person-ally thought that those times tempered these, hard choices had to be made there too. Some said too late, some say too soon on these now;

</b>
It's a shame that happened. And I don't know the circumstances, but if you want to write or speak, there's many hard lessons to be learned. No one comes up to us and asks us how painful we'd like a lesson to be. They happen; some horribly painful; some tolerable; some unnoticed.

If one wants to write or speak in public, there's lumps a comin'.

Overcome the lumps and one becomes a better write or speakerr. Think of verbal give and take, as forming a callus; the next gives are tougher, and the next takes don't hurt as much.

<b>

there ain't no way to keep everyone happy; all you can do is your best!
JP and Sherrill have satisfied me there.

If everyone were happy, we'd still be in caves peering out into the sun. And doing your best is a goal; it should never be an excuse.


Bib Wulkowicz

 

[DDM]

Reading a thread like this one puts me in the mood to get out my CC and buy some toys from sherrill.

 

[Wulkowicz]

Originally posted by DDM
Reading a thread like this one puts me in the mood to get out my CC and buy some toys from sherrill.

See. The thread does have a value.


Tubs

 

[trees4life]

Can you say professionalism? Anyone browsing the original thread, not familiar with this site or the members, was likely flabergasted to read about such behaviour. I agree that the thread was started to create some 'talk' and test the censorship waters.

I for one, am glad it was deleted. I am tired of hearing about what kind of people tree workers are, and people putting us down as a bunch of low lifes. As previously stated, this site is for professional use.

I too, am not a huge fan of censorship, however I do believe that sometimes it is needed. I'm no fan of PC (political correctness) either, but understand it does have a place in society. If I want to read about bodily functions, or ethnic slurs, there are other sites to visit. I believe many of us come here to be enlightened, and discuss the business near & dear to us.

AS and the administrators have my support on this issue.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

ooooooooooo Wulke!

i have nothing but the highest respect for your contributions of humor, intelligence, efforts to share such etc. here and elsewhere, i can only aspire to reach some of those heights myself, from the first time i ever read any of your lendings of such going years back now. i see and respect in you this soaring high creativity that flows out generouslyu and inteligently, and wishes to fly, reach and grow unfettered; also graciously extending that to others as you step up and champion this cause so eloquently as you have done with many other causes over the years.

All i can say, is that everyone else is not you, nor so gifted or care-full in these arenas. Even in your most royal self humility, you must quietly inside realize that about yourself by now! i have previously in the last weak almost written you these things privately, but now quite fairly publically pro-claim them.

There was a time here in this place, that these freedoms where disrespected and taken advantage of, folks where attacked as you, yourself example about the ladies. Though that wasn't the case here in this particular posting; those previous things did tune up the censoring some; and increase the awareness of the sponsors, almost to the point of our demise!

The peeing thread didn't violate me, but nor did i favor it; but as one quiet watcher (spy-der); i can sit back and see where these censoring things have come from here and how they have necessarily evolved to re-embrace the written standards that pre-dated the actual problems themselves. i don't beleive that a newspaper or tv would run such an article, for these people have freedoms of choice too. For one's freedom to swing their arms around, ends where the next person's nose begins; just as one's freedom to cuss, might depend on who's house you are standing in, as not to violate their freedoms of choice in their own space.

i think that the sponsors have done well for us here, that these censored items are not obtuse; and that in giving back, cooperating with them on these things, in their house is the write thing. Person-ally i have always envisioned of us giving back to them on this higher level, whereby; the contributions here where so intelligent, helpfull, bright, shiny and honorable, that the sponsors could direct anyone here without reservation. That the catalouges, internet sites, biz cards and other pro-paganda would proudly screech out invitations to here; quite honestly i don't think that we have given them that here, for what they have done for us. Quite the contrary, i think that we have taken that from them; and that JP tries to neutralize some of that on our be-half as well as theirs; the man in the middle! But if we could give the sponsors that, and they could confident-ally advertise more openly this place, we would empower them to draw in a larger pool of minds and observations from their extended network to draw from and share with; whereby wee would all win!

i really, really, really don't think that JP has anything at all against bad grammer and miss-spellings; in fact in reading his posts it seems that he actually reveres them!!!!!!! i myself whimsically abuse them in humor, message, duality as part of my own creativity, and maintaining lightness in my throes of seriousness; to find that cooling balance. In fact, someone did suggest i migrate here from ISA if that was the way i wanted to be! So y'all can blame that person!

P.s. edit-It is nice to hear from trees4life, as i had fears that wee wouldn't again, as part of the attrition rate around here; as i do about others, for these same reasons.

 

[trees4life]

Tree Spyder

I can't stay away for long. I enjoy the interesting discussions, and have come to respect the varied opinions and vast knowledge expressed here.

Even though I don't necessarily agree with some opinions, I respect the fact that people can disagree, and it(usually) won't affect their respect for others. However, when professionalism goes down the toilet, I believe it does tend to drive people away, hopefully only temporarily.

 

[Greg]

--ok guys,,, Let me change the topic a bit....
I think abortion is murder, and the Isreal is getting what it deserves from the Palestinians (JPS fix that spelling for me please).
Anyone want to share any good free **** sites??
Greg