661 Oil Test 32:1 vs 40:1 vs 50:1 ?

[redbull660]

Not to insult you redbull, but there are so many variable you are not controlling that any yest you perform is at least somewhat suspect.
Really this test would need to be ran on a GOOD dyno with someone who knows how to operate it.

so no cutting? just a dyno?

If there is cutting...

I'd really like to know the method that im not doing correctly and what variables im not controlling and what "appropriate info needs to be presented."

I am going to redo the tests and do more tests,,,but man if I could do it better. Please freakin tell me before I spend more time, effort, and money...and Wood!

 

[bwalker]

so no cutting? just a dyno?

If there is cutting...

I'd really like to know the method that im not doing correctly and what variables im not controlling and what "appropriate info needs to be presented."

I am going to redo the tests and do more tests,,,but man if I could do it better. Please freakin tell me before I spend more time, effort, and money...and Wood!

Wood is a inconsistent material, chain is inconsistent, and a human operator is hugely inconsistent.
That's not to mention this issues of Mtronic and how it might respond.
Besides what are you trying to prove? What conclusion are you looking for?
Not being a dlck, just curious.

 

[Trx250r180]

Looks like Redbull needs to buy hydrolic lines and pumps ,instead of rolls of chain ?

 

[bwalker]

Looks like Redbull needs to buy hydrolic lines and pumps ,instead of rolls of chain ?

Even doing a test like this on a dyno is difficult.. and many dyno aren't worth a damn.

 

[WKEND LUMBERJAK]

I will say this thread has been interesting and I still don't know what oil to use. I must be weak minded..

 

[KG441c]

I see the biggest mistake with regular carb saws is we r trying to tune our saw with oil ratio. Choose the oil ratio u want to run and jet the carb if needed and tune the saw to fit the ratio

 

[porsche965]

I just grab the orange screwdriver and tune away. That's why there is access holes to the carb without taking off the hoods.

 

[zogger]

I will say this thread has been interesting and I still don't know what oil to use. I must be weak minded..

wallywhirrled 30 weight at 16:1, use the same for the bar oil, done. Shake the mix up good.

 

[porsche965]

Ok Bwalker, just how would you set up a test to evaluate the oils discussed in this thread. That would pass your standards?

I'd really like to know the right way of doing this. And am willing to put up $ to do it. Like I'm sure everyone here is also. I mean, freeloading really is a shameful way of living life.

 

[the GOAT]

Where do we get 30% 40% and so on? Who is posting these numbers? The builders that's who. Most gains come from a MM and tightening up squish, some guys really don't even grind much anymore.

 

[bwalker]

Ok Bwalker, just how would you set up a test to evaluate the oils discussed in this thread. That would pass your standards?

I'd really like to know the right way of doing this. And am willing to put up $ to do it. Like I'm sure everyone here is also. I mean, freeloading really is a shameful way of living life.

I don't test, because years ago I found that if I listened to people that were successful and smart and observed what they used that it wpuld also work for me. Hint!
Don't worry about freeloading. I don't find anything useful from your tests..

 

[bwalker]

well at the GTG there was a lot decided & figured out based on one cut heh So I'd have to say my methods are pretty anal.

Wood -
- generally I will slice the end off a log if it's been sitting because that first piece is exposed to the elements.

- Wood does vary and that is why I've gone to doing 1 slice on multiple logs. Generally I try for 3 logs. First is smaller and I pretty much consider that my "burn card". It's a check to make sure the saw is warmed up and then I check the chain/tension one more time. At that point I know the saw is ready. then 2 logs which are consistent and concentric.

- I've tested this/my method by doing multiple cuts with the same bar and chain and the times are usually equal or with in +/- .2 seconds.

- anyone that watched me at the Iowa GTG would probably vouch for how meticulous I am.

Chain -
- I only use new stihl chain. 1 for each test ...each bar each muffler each whatever I'm testing.
- I've heard the argument that stihl chain varies from roll to roll. I just haven't seen that. Probably gone through 20 rolls in the last year....just haven't seen that.

Operator -
I think there is some truth to this. 2 items come to mind.

1. technique - it has to be the same.
2. pressure applied - again has to be the same.

technique will make a larger difference in time than pressure applied.

MTronic -
with the 661 h1r oil ratio test. The results had a somewhat parabolic progression. But they were consistent. I'm pretty sure they are good to go. However after playing with the reset feature at the Iowa GTG ...yeah I'd like to make sure.

And the results makes perfect sense. As you add more oil to the system your going to progressively impead piston movement. Maybe not on something that is running 2000-3000rpm so much, but when your talking a system that operates at ~8-11k in the cut...yeah it's going to make a difference in time if the piston slows down.

H1R 800 R50 stihl ultra - all premix only oils. No solvents in them. Just oil and additives. So more oil in the bottle.

2r 710 si7 lucas amsoil woodland - all I guess u could call them multipurpose. Some have solvents in them for injectors. Some have solvents in them to help with formulation. Whatever the case may be...solvents aren't lubricants. Just because you mix with these "multipurpose oils" at 32:1. Doesn't mean your getting a 32:1 ratio of oil and gas. ..you have to account for the solvents.

Seems to be a very hard concept for some to grasp but belray has said exactly that and so has motul. I'm not making this sh*t up.

Chainsaws don't require solvents. It doesn't necessarily hurt them and it doesn't really help either. The ideal oil for a chainsaw is premix. That is exactly what Stihl Ultra is. Premix - oil and an additive package. Of course the argument out there via Mr. Walker is that fully synthetic is problematic. That's debatable for sure.

Bottom line is: you can't dump in the same amount of "premix" oil and the same amount of "multipurpose" oil in your gas and expect the same results. You are getting more oil in the premix solution. Kinda like using Dawn vs Ajax or something like that. Need more Ajax to get same effect.


Prove -

The only things we can prove with testing would be

1. finding the optimal mix ratio for various oils. Via figuring the best combination of fastest times, lowest temps, and most consistent temps.

from there...

2. you could take each oil at it's best mix ratio against another with it's best mix ratio to determine if there was any difference in time.

from there...
3. you'd have to run the "winner" oil for a while to find out if it offered protection etc etc etc.


Right now my list includes

multipurpose oils...
Motul 710
2R
SI 7
I honestly think these will be very close in performance. But that's just speculation until tested.

premix oils
800 off road
h1R
I think these two will be very close.

The thing I'm most curious about is the multipurpose vs the premix. The chemical and physical properties are opposite sides of the spectrum....I want to see what differences there are.

I'm not ruling out H1R because my current theory is that the reasons people have had problems with it, is because they run it to heavy with out realizing that they are due to how pure it is if you will. It doesn't matter what oil you run. If you account for the solvents and then run that oil heavy enough, you will have issues.

So far I've proved that running less H1R then the old adage...accepted golden ratio of 32:1 was better. That makes perfect logical sense if you've read up to this point. It's not me that's saying it. I'm just repeating what Belray AND Motul have said.

And I've run it at 42:1 in my saw... and so far so good.

Sure it needs more evidence to confirm that. Like running the 800. But i'm not just going to throw h1r out.

H1R on paper at least, looks like the best oil. Paper and real life are two different things. So... we'll see.

Just when I think there may be hope for you you go off the deep end..
First of all 2R is a premix oil, not a multi purpose oil. It does use a solvent because it uses very viscous PIB for a component. It needs this solvent for several reasons.
And don't go limping in those other oils with that crap you run.
Lots of stuff.looks good on paper, but in practice H1R is garbage.

 

[blsnelling]

I agreed with most everything you said until the last sentence. How did you determine that H1-R is better than 800 2T, R50, or K2? I've seen no evidence to support that.

 

[bwalker]

Brad, how many guys saying it effects combustion in a negative way do you need to say that it indeed does. And then Redbull tests it and basicly that's what the results are.
The stuff is crap and many people have known this for years. I am not speculating, I have used the damn stuff in multiple applications.

 

[porsche965]

I'd .like to see bel-ray 710 for comparison have ordered some myself. I'm still concerned with the Viscosity on Mtron Saws

 

[bwalker]

Given that a chainsaw doesn't need an oil with solvents.

Given that H1R is just ester and additives. That's it. Simple. The way it should be. And thinking about it... yeah 800 may be just as good if not better. All ester and additives.




your boy Rich says different. Says 2r can be used with injectors. Given it's solvents, it's low viscosity...yeah it's multipurpose. Sorry.

H1R seems to run fine for me so far. But I'm not biased to say it's crap or the best and just make up my mind. I want to test it against the others. As far as I'm concerned they all have an equal shot right now. Like I said paper is one thing. Real world is another.


furthermore - you are hell bent on running 32:1 no matter what the oil is. That's just illogical thinking. imo

That's not what he said at all... Yamaha sells an injector oil, it's called 2S.
Your equating solvents with injection oils, but should be equating them with the US of PIB's.

 

[bwalker]

2S - says "all purpose 2 stroke oil"

https://www.yamahapartsandaccessori...ngine-oil?b=Engine+Oils&d=30|30&dealernumber=

This technologically advanced semi-synthetic base stock and additive 2-stroke engine oil provides all-season performance and greatly reduces visible smoke. Low deposits and reduced carbon and varnish deposit means longer engine life and greater performance over time. It provides exceptional lubrication in all temperatures, and a special additive maintains flow and prevents “gelling” in sub-zero conditions.

2R - says "competition 2 stroke oil"

https://www.yamahapartsandaccessori...ngine-oil?b=Engine+Oils&d=30|30&dealernumber=

A high-performance 2 stroke blend developed to stand up to high temperatures, rigorous demands and stress of competition engines. Special base stocks protect against wear and breakdown, low carbon deposits on pistons, rings and exhaust ports, reduces friction that allows for maximum horsepower.




2r is multipurpose because of it's solvent make up and viscosity. It's not premix. IF it was premix he wouldn't be saying you could use it with injectors.

800 h1r stihl ultra r50 - you wouldn't dare use with injectors they are true premix.

No where does it day 2R is multipurpose. What Rich said is that you may use it as an injector oil in some situations. I have used Redline two cycle racing oil in an injection stem and it worked ok as would the oils you listed. As long as you were careful in regards to temperatures.
What you do is you read stuff via google and misinterpret it because you have no real knowledge or understanding then spin it off on this board as fact.

 

[bwalker]

it doesn't matter anyway. you can't even grasp the idea that there is more oil in a bottle of h1r 800 ultra & r50 then R2...yes, because of it's solvent content!

You can't even get past the stubborn idea that EVERYTHING has to be run at 32:1 and if it don't run at 32:1 it's GARBAGE.

This isn't true at all..

 

[bwalker]

2S - says "all purpose 2 stroke oil"

https://www.yamahapartsandaccessori...ngine-oil?b=Engine+Oils&d=30|30&dealernumber=

This technologically advanced semi-synthetic base stock and additive 2-stroke engine oil provides all-season performance and greatly reduces visible smoke. Low deposits and reduced carbon and varnish deposit means longer engine life and greater performance over time. It provides exceptional lubrication in all temperatures, and a special additive maintains flow and prevents “gelling” in sub-zero conditions.

2R - says "competition 2 stroke oil"

https://www.yamahapartsandaccessori...ngine-oil?b=Engine+Oils&d=30|30&dealernumber=

A high-performance 2 stroke blend developed to stand up to high temperatures, rigorous demands and stress of competition engines. Special base stocks protect against wear and breakdown, low carbon deposits on pistons, rings and exhaust ports, reduces friction that allows for maximum horsepower.




2r is multipurpose because of it's solvent make up and viscosity. It's not premix. IF it was premix he wouldn't be saying you could use it with injectors.

800 h1r stihl ultra r50 - you wouldn't dare use with injectors they are true premix.

Read the quote...it's saying 2r wasn't designed for injector use, but that it may be used in an injected system carefully.
Let me clue you in on one more thing PIB is many times more thicker than the base oil in H1R. The solvent is added to keep the various components blended and to help in mixing with fuel. It's not a filler as you falsely assume and it makes up a very small part of the blend.
Also why the fixation on 2r? Almost anything woukd be a step up from that crap you use now.

 

[bwalker]

Btw H1R is designed for mx Bikes. These bikes have for the most part a factory reccomended oil ratio of 32:1 or in the case of Yamaha 30:1. Don't you think it odd that H1R causes a precipitous drop in power when ran at 32:1 when it should be designed for this ratio given its intended application?